PaaK seems to require cellular service

[milepost1]

It would be easier if they just supplied 2 FOBs. Tesla supplies 2 cards and advises to keep one in your wallet. WHY? one reason in case paak does not work, other in case phone goes dead. When i have FOB, no issues. When i use paak issues. Would much prefer to just carry FOB around. Dont even have to take it out of my pocket. So much easier than trying to get paak to work. and if i have to have cell service for paak to work even worse. There are a lot of place cell service is spotty at best.

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[Kamuelaflyer]

If you're going to be out of cell phone coverage, I recommend you have your fob with you as a backup.

That would mean much of Hawaii Island and the vast majority of of Hawaii Volcanoes National Park.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

Cell service to use PaaK is unexpected. Must need an internet connection for some reason. I looked at the system diagrams and it appears to use the same components as RKE....that is how the car knows the phone is nearby. Based on your findings, there are more requirements then the mere proximity of the phone.

This is going to be an issue at home. Cell coverage is weak to non existent around the homestead.

 

[Shayne]

Lots of folks on the Forum are indicating that PaaK isn’t ready for prime time. While many folks have indicated they were giving up on it. I’ve gone all-in on Paak and normally leave my fob at home. For this trip to Florida I brought the fob but carried it in the glove compartment wrapped in two faraday bags so Marlin wouldn’t “see” it. Once we got here to Marco I left it in the condo in a suitcase. That means when the 5 March Everglades incidents cropped up, I had no fob to fall back on. It’s now back in the glove box due to the Everglades Incidents below.

General issues:
Sometimes Marlin sees the phone, sometimes he doesn’t. My iPhone 12Pro may be working better for recognition to unlock than my wife’s iPhone 7. However, that may just be because I'm driving most of the time. Unlocking the driver’s door is the most reliable, lift gate second, passenger door the least. In fact, I'm starting to wonder if PaaK is working on the passenger door at all. Often we’ll have to wake up the phone and start or activate the app to get it to work. Sometimes we have to press unlock on the app. Sometimes we have to resort to the key pad to open the car. The phone really needs to be sitting on the charging pad to start the car. Starting almost never works with the phone in a back pocket. Walk-away lock has become unreliable, too. It often works great — probably most of the time. Sometimes it doesn’t. That’s not reliable for locking a vehicle in a city.

The Everglades Incidents:
PaaK failed miserably and consistently when there was no cell coverage. Many parts of the Everglades have absolutely no cell signal. This is true of many big National Parks. First, PaaK wouldn’t work at all at the Shark Valley Visitor Center. It would neither open the doors, nor start the car, even if the phone was connected to the USB. The app would not start on the phone since it couldn’t connect to the mothership (won't get past the first Ford splash screen). We had to use the door and start backup codes. Once in Miami for the charge at the Miami International Mall PaaK was working fine. Then we entered the Park through the main entrance. Once a short distance past the Visitor Center, we had no cell signal again. The rest of the day in Everglades National Park, PaaK would not open doors or start the car. Every hike, every boardwalk, etc., we had to use the door and start codes. If I left Marlin on and got out to the pictures, the security system would require a key to put the car into drive. Since the PaaK wasn’t working, that meant waiting for a minute for the passcode prompt to appear and then entering the start code again -- every, single time.

If you're going to be out of cell phone coverage, I recommend you have your fob with you as a backup.

My i7 256 has worked ok so far not perfect but not unusable either. I would rate it good, OK but still have the security fob around (bag really good idea). Wondering if we start setting privacy settings if it will not phone home so much. Sync talk to the car and fordpass talk to sync through bluetooth. It appears phoning home may not be helping, copy data to cache and dump it when wifi'd or on a schedule and it has cell service. Me I am wide open to help Ford with data to start but there are security/privacy settings. Thanks for the info sounds like I need to get a handle on the door lock code and the start code when it comes back.

 

[GoosePond08]

This seems like it would be a complete failure, if it in fact only operates by cell signal and not Bluetooth once near the car.

Imagine you're in a cabin, in the middle of the woods. And the living-dead start coming out of the cellar, eating brains left and right. You can't call for help because you have no cell signal. So you run out to your Mach-E only to find that you've been left for dead and its brains for dinner tonight. You're menu item #1.

These are real life scenarios that should have been tested fully through.

 

[agoldman]

It would be easier if they just supplied 2 FOBs. Tesla supplies 2 cards and advises to keep one in your wallet.

I wish they did have a little card. So much easier than a giant, heavy, bulbous Fob.

 

[DBC]

Requiring mobile service with Bluetooth would be quite unusual so I'm finding it difficult to believe it is intended to be required. Whether it's required is a different issue.

If I put my iPhone is Airplane Mode, which kills both WiFi and Cellular service but not Bluetooth, PAAK works perfectly. Unless I'm missing something this suggests that PAAK does not require cellular service, at least on an iPhone X.

 

[SnBGC]

I wish they did have a little card. So much easier than a giant, heavy, bulbous Fob.

Agreed!
When they handed me the fob I was like....."Why did Ford make such a brick?". Then I turned if over and saw the pony logo and that explained it. Same Fruedian reason why the Mustang's exhaust pipes are oversized at the exits.

Side by side comparison: MME and FFE fobs:

 

[digdug52]

Think "exclusive"! The Bleeding Edge Kids or something like that. I do see a pattern of behavior for me though - the eternal early adopter.

I had full intention to buy the Duo last year, but when Microsoft announced no NFC (Contactless payment with Google Pay is a must), I decided to wait until the next generation comes out. I picked up a discounted leftover PIxel 4 and will see which is best between Duo 2 and Pixel 6 this fall.

 

[milepost1]

Can anyone answer the advantage of PaaK over FOB?

 

[DBC]

Can anyone answer the advantage of PaaK over FOB?

One less device to carry plus you're more likely to have your phone available.

 

[ChasingCoral]

this part is super interesting. I wonder what exactly is going on here; is this just a situation where the app won't allow the Bluetooth to happen if not signed in, or if there's something fancier here like a security key being exchanged that is removed from the device when you sign out and put back on when you sign in, retrieved from the "cloud based Global Vehicle Management System"...

none of this explains why @ChasingCoral seemed to need Internet connectivity since the process as described seems to imply it's only needed for the initial "set this up and send the information to the car" process.

Exactly my thought. We know:
"The Ford Pass app must remain logged in on the vehicle owner’s registered and authorized connected mobile device in order for the Phone as a Key feature to function with the vehicle. If the Ford Pass app tab is logged off the vehicle owner’s registered and authorized connected mobile device the Phone as a Key feature will not work."
What I found out in the Everglades is the Ford Pass app would not open beyond the initial splash page, basically saying it couldn't connect with the servers. Is that connection with the mothership necessary as well and just not mentioned here? Note that I had not logged out and the Ford Pass app was an open tab in the background. However, I could not fully open the app when I made it the active tab because of the lack of cell signal.

 

[ChasingCoral]

Requiring mobile service with Bluetooth would be quite unusual so I'm finding it difficult to believe it is intended to be required. Whether it's required is a different issue.

If I put my iPhone is Airplane Mode, which kills both WiFi and Cellular service but not Bluetooth, PAAK works perfectly. Unless I'm missing something this suggests that PAAK does not require cellular service, at least on an iPhone X.

Remember that being in airplane mode and having no signal are completely different. When in airplane mode, the phone knows not to attempt to find a signal and apps may realize this as well. When you just have no signal, the phone and apps continue to connect to whatever networks they normally connect to.

 

[benk016]

Agreed!
When they handed me the fob I was like....."Why did Ford make such a brick?". Then I turned if over and saw the pony logo and that explained it. Same Fruedian reason why the Mustang's exhaust pipes are oversized at the exits.

Side by side comparison: MME and FFE fobs:

I'm not sure why they don't use the skinnier fob on more vehicles. My ex's explorer had that one, but my 2013 Fusion, 2019 Edge, and now he MME have all had the thicker fobs.

 

[phidauex]

Remember that being in airplane mode and having no signal are completely different. When in airplane mode, the phone knows not to attempt to find a signal and apps may realize this as well. When you just have no signal, the phone and apps continue to connect to whatever networks they normally connect to.

I think this may be related. Working with a lot of mobile apps that have both online and offline modes, the hardest to test for is "online, but shitty connection", because it thinks it can connect, tries to connect, then times out and fails un-gracefully. Knowing you have "No Signal" or Airplane Mode is better because it doesn't even try to connect.

My guess on the "logged in" part is not that service is needed, but when the BLE connection requests the key from the app, the app will only return the key if it has a valid logged in token, meaning it had been logged in for real at some point in the recent past, and the token had not either been cleared (you logged out), or expired (you haven't opened the app in a long time).

It might be failing because the app opens, sees you have a connection, attempts to update its login information, and then times out because the connection is interrupted, extremely slow, or fails to initiate. Since it thinks a connection is present, it doesn't know to give up.

My wife tests mobile BLE hardware and associated apps and we have a whole slew of faraday bags around here for testing. Some are handy because they don't totally kill the signal, just makes it extremely poor.

Hopefully these little handshakes get worked out. In the Before Times I travelled a LOT for work and had a lot of mixed success with hotel "mobile keys" - indeed many of them work the way we were worried about for PaaK, the phone app contacts the server, requests an unlock, confirms location, then the server contacts the building automation, which tells the door to unlock. So you are 2' from the lock and a cloud server somewhere still has to relay your "open me" request.

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