What Road Trip Charging Should Be

All Hat No Cattle

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On the Tesla vs. MME thread, we went off on a tangent debating why a BEV is better than an ICE.

So I thought we might discuss it here, because it went into charging vs. gas pumps, like this.

Now as far as “cost effective,” that’s only true when you charge at home. Those rapid chargers can cost more to fill up than a gas station!
Maybe, but just as the price of gasoline can vary in the same town, like $3.65 at a local Chevron here in Vegas, to $2.95 at my local Costco. Both are Top Tier stations. And the stations are within sight of each other, LOL.

So competition should even that out. Here are some possibilities.

For example, in England they do this.

There are now more than 35,000 charge point connectors across the UK in over 13,000 locations - that's more public places to charge than petrol stations, with around 7,000 charge point connectors added in 2020 alone. the biggest increase was in the new 150-350kW ultra-rapid chargers space.

Free electric car charging points
There are thousands of free electric car charge points in the UK, often located in supermarkets, shopping centres, public car parks, hotels and sometimes service stations. Be aware there could be restrictions such as a set period of time or a requiring a purchase in-store, so it's best to check.
And sometimes you just have to use your imagination.:)

The great thing about electric-car charging is that it can take advantage of existing grid infrastructure. A new project in the United Kingdom demonstrates the benefits of that.


Siemens built charging stations into 24 lampposts on roughly a half-mile of Sutherland Avenue in London. The section of street was rechristened, appropriately enough, "Electric Avenue, W9."
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ic-car-charging-into-a-half-mile-of-lampposts

What, are the British smarter than we are?
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All Hat No Cattle

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On the road charging cost will never be competitive with charging at home.
For the sake of argument, I will concede that. OK.

But that brings up 2 major points.

1) Should someone that has a 50 mile daily commute, that costs him 1/7 the fuel cost of a gasser vehicle, not be allowed to own a BEV because "On the road charging cost will never be competitive with charging at home"? Why not allow him to make the choice?

That person, driving 250 miles a week for 50 weeks, (12,500 miles/year)would spend $467.50 for electricity for his BEV, or $1627.50 for fuel for his gasser. And even less if he has a good electric company, as I do.

2) When he goes on his 2 week vacation road trip, what are the odds that he will spend $1,000.00 on Super Chargers on the road? Maybe a trip to Cape Horn? Not likely in 2 weeks, LOL.

The quote below is documented here, so it is not opinion. Just math.

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...is-better-than-the-tesla-model-y.1326/page-89


Today, Costco gas is $3.10 for regular, and my standard electric rate is $.11/kwh.

So, 4.2 gallons X $3.10=$13.02 per 100 miles. And, 34 KWH x $.11= $3.74 per 100 miles.

And if I only charge at night I can get a $.05/KWH rate., so...

Show me an ICE that can match that.
 

DBC

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Not having to deal with gas stations is worth at least $.20/mile! Seriously. Worst consumer experience in the US.

For most people a BEV will be far less expensive to operate than an ICE. On the other hand, a MME is going to be a lot more expensive to operate than a Corolla. If you want cheap buy a cheap car. If you want a premium ride get a nice BEV. And if you want really cheap get a bicycle.
 

buzznwood

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For the long term viability of BEVs on a road trip the only real solution will be increasing battery density to the point that having to charge on route will happen only on the longest of trips and can probably be timed with a longer stop for lunch / dinner.

I know dirty oil burner dieselgate bad etc but using a TDI as an example of a good road tripper ICE would get you 600 to 800 miles of highway range in a tank, with the average gas ICE vehicle in the 350 to 400 mile range per tank. If we continue with the existing short ranges of BEVS and just concentrate on adding chargers you are going to need a huge amount of 300kw DCFC covering every possible route with a massive numbers of bays to cater to the potential demand as while people will tollerate the charge times when they can plug straight in they are not going to put up with it when they find themselves being 3rd in line.

If we can instead get the range up then I can see it becoming more about destination charging with potentially a single short top up, with a huge range and destination charging it will be easier to install loads of L2 and slower L3 chargers as if you can assume that once at the destination such as a hotel, town etc people will be parked for a long while so have the time to charge overnight or while out and about doing the tourist stuff so the slower charging speed is less of an issue.

The need for super fast chargers can then really be limited to highways similar to the lonely gas stations you get now, as there is probably little need for a large number of charging bays at these locations as most people stopping will be spaced out enough for the chances of all bays being in use a very rare occurrence.

So while massive range and super fast charging would be great, given the choice I would rather have 800 miles of range and charge at the destination at a slower rate instead of needing to stop every 150miles and top up even if you can do that top up in 15 minutes.
 

stmache

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I think a big issue in the US is we love to build things and then don't maintain them. I see it in all the charging station check-ins on PlugShare. Get to a bank of 4 stations and maybe one or two plugs work. Look at our roads and bridges. We let them get into such disrepair, it takes billions of dollars to get "some" of them fixed or replaced every 20 years.

When will the US see it is cheaper to maintain then replace? Drives me nuts how much money is wasted this way. Besides, you keep people employed consistently this way.
 


JoeDimwit

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I think a big issue in the US is we love to build things and then don't maintain them. I see it in all the charging station check-ins on PlugShare. Get to a bank of 4 stations and maybe one or two plugs work. Look at our roads and bridges. We let them get into such disrepair, it takes billions of dollars to get "some" of them fixed or replaced every 20 years.

When will the US see it is cheaper to maintain then replace? Drives me nuts how much money is wasted this way. Besides, you keep people employed consistently this way.
Profitable equipment gets maintained. We often forget that we (BEV drivers) are too small a population group to even be considered a minority. When a gas station has a pump break down, they stand to lose dozens, if not hundreds of sales per day. The average charging station here in the Detroit metropolitan area might lose 1. Sure, there are charging stations that are considerably busier, but they are outliers. For now.

We are still in the infancy of BEV adoption, and it is likely to be a decade or more before there are enough chargers out there, getting used enough to generate real profits, for there to be dedicated maintenance crews tasked to keep various charging networks functioning reliably.
 
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All Hat No Cattle

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The road trip charging is a serious hurdle for BEV vehicles.
It really depends on how much you road trip, doesn't it? The percentage of road trip charging is relatively minor, maybe that is why there are not more on the road chargers.

The vast majority of BEV charging is always going to be at home, no matter how good or how many Superchargers are out there.

Why? Because people spend a lot more time driving back and forth to work than they do on road trips, and that is not debatable

And in a BEV, they may spend 1/7th of the money to do so, compared to a gasser.

Plus they get the added bonus of this. Some people actually care about that. Some don't.

https://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/gasoline/gasoline-and-the-environment.php


Gasoline use contributes to air pollution

Gasoline is a toxic and highly flammable liquid. The vapors given off when gasoline evaporates and the substances produced when gasoline is burned (carbon monoxide, nitrogen oxides, particulate matter, and unburned hydrocarbons) contribute to air pollution. Burning gasoline also produces carbon dioxide, a greenhouse gas.
 

jhalkias

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The statement "cost more to fill up than gas" has me a bit perplexed.

Let me use the example of a recent road trip.

We traveled about 1.000 miles, and I am going to round it to that number. Before we left, I signed up for the EA Pass Plus at $4.00 for a month. That gives me a cost of .31/kWh. The weather was warm, we drove at 70mph or less on the highway, and we averaged about 3.1 M/kWh. Now, I did find free chargers where we were, and I did not pay for all 1,000 of my miles, but for the sake of argument, let's imagine I did.

1,000 miles/3.1 = 322.58 kWh X.31 =$99.99 + $4.00 = $103.99

My Ford Escape AWD got just about 24 MPG.

1,000 miles / 24 = 41.67 gallons. Average price around me is about $2.65/gallon, but some places we were it was almost $3.00/gallon.

$2.65 X 41.67 = $110.42

So in my eyes, I am calling this even compared to traveling in my ICE vehicle. Other factors can come into play (cold weather as an example) and I didn't factor in that in PA I was paying by the minute for DCFC (.24/minute that ended up being almost HALF the cost/kWH when all was said and done).

So with the price of gas today, I am not buying the idea that a BEV is more expensive than gas when you road trip. In my eyes they are roughly equivalent.

Charging at home 95% of the time and finding free charging if you are resourceful makes takes it from even to a win/win all the way around.
 

ChasingCoral

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That's also an old article and EA has changed their rate structure since then. Now EA has no session fees and charges by the kWh in CA. I think EA charging is now cheaper than gas in CA. I'll let CA folks chime in.
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