Mach-E Web Series Part 2: SYNC 4A

[macchiaz-o]

I think that display will be a much bigger difference-maker than people have been giving it credit for. And it sounds like Ford is doing some really great stuff with it too.

I re-ordered the quoted sentences for clarity in response.

One cool thing I heard in the webcast is that when navigation is running in Android Auto, a bit of the navigation is incorporated into the instrument cluster display.

I always expected that to be the case for built-in navigation. But hearing that it can also work via Android Auto is really compelling. It means that you get to use your preferred navigation app (Ford or Google Maps or Waze or ...), you'll see and hear its navigation advice, and you aren't required to give up real estate of the center display while doing so.

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[GoGoGadgetMachE]

I'll tell you that in my C-Max Energi, I had battery degradation by 20,000 miles. The PHEV had a very small top buffer, 100% displayed was 97% actual battery SoC, and mine degraded when always fully charged.

To me, it's all about customer expectations.

Use a hypothetical 100 kWh car that gets 250 Wh/mi as an example.

I can sell it to a customer and say "charge to 100%, no problem" but then I have to software lock out 15% of the capacity so when the customer sees 0% it's at 5%, and when they see 100% it's actually at 90%. Now my customer is happy they "don't have to worry about" managing their battery, but they paid for 15% more battery than they get to use, and as a result our hypothetical car has a usable battery of 85 kWh and range of 340 miles.

Alternatively, I can sell that exact same car and exact same battery and allow the customer to use, say, 95% of the capacity, so when they're at 100%, the battery is at 98%, and when they're at 0% displayed, it's at 3% actual SoC. No change in battery technology, at all. But by saying "please don't go above 90% unless you really need it" to the customer, I've given then access to 15% more kWhs that they actually still paid for in the other scenario, at the cost of forcing them to do some extra thinking. In this scenario, our customer can use 95 kWh if they want to, so their 100% range is 380 miles, but their "daily" 90% range is the same roughly 342 miles as the other car.

I would much rather have the second scenario, which is what Tesla and Polestar does.

Set it to 90% for daily use, 100% only if you need it, because when you do need it, it's very nice to have that extra buffer. It's like a "unlockable" extra battery for road trips.

Nobody (well, nearly nobody) needs even 50% of a Mach-E's battery daily. I don't see why managing battery charge limit would be at all stressful to anyone. Having owned both a PHEV that didn't allow it and a BEV that did, it just seemed seamless and logical to manage charge limits myself in the BEV.

Others have said they haven't seen degradation so I am not sure why your experience is different, but it is your experience so I am not going to argue with you - that would be silly. If you are seeing enough degradation, I'd call in the 8/100 warranty.

It's weird to me that it's considered acceptable as a customer expectation to care about charge maximums. For one thing, what if you need the 20% in some kind of emergency and you decided "eh I don't need it and I better not do it because the car isn't smart enough to manage the battery?"

My expectation is around stated range. I won't get full range if I limit my charge arbitrarily because the car is dumb. Part of what I am paying for is the ability to go to 100% for stated range instead of playing guessing games around what I should charge to.

Limiting my charge because the car is dumb would annoy me way more than knowing there is a buffer (that can be reduced in software later if it seems to be able to take it) that lets me plug in and forget every single time.

Exactly what I do with my Fusion today.

 

[pb3]

During the webinar, I asked the moderators to comment on Ford's partnership with TomTom for navigation versus the more obvious choice of Google (free updates of maps, POIs, etc) and asked about costs. Free for life? Subscription based?

They didn't answer my question but, in response to another viewer, said the when sold, the MME would have all of the functionality out of the box. Then he became a bit coy skirting around the question, but implying that some features (not specific) would have a cost if you wanted to continue after some (non-specified) period of time.

What this actually means is anyone's guess at this stage. But we do know that companies want a revenue stream, instead of a buy once, use for life model.

I don't expect to have "free" unlimited for life 4 or 5G video streaming. It doesn't matter to me anyway because I have a decent cellular data plan.

On the other hand, I don't expect navigation to be hobbled, nor display and updates for charging waypoints, nor the underlying data required for the Co-pilot features and so on.

It will be interesting to see how much "grace" period we get for which features.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

I re-ordered the quoted sentences for clarity in response.

One cool thing I heard in the webcast is that when navigation is running in Android Auto, a bit of the navigation is incorporated into the instrument cluster display.

I always expected that to be the case for built-in navigation. But hearing that it can also work via Android Auto is really compelling. It means that you get to use your preferred navigation app (Ford or Google Maps or Waze or ...), you'll see and hear its navigation advice, and you aren't required to give up real estate of the center display while doing so.

This struck me as interesting as well and I am very curious about how it works. I will probably play with it just to see (then likely never use it again ?).

 

[agoldman]

I think the days of paying for map updates are pretty much over.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

I think the days of paying for map updates are pretty much over.

I have a Garmin with a stealth dashcam I used to use when renting cars in the Before Times and that has free updates. So yeah I think that is generally true... But Ford/HERE still send me an annual update ad for $150 or so... So it might be a case of mainstream car manufacturers being behind the times. (I know that is shocking to think about.)

 

[hybrid2bev]

During the webinar, I asked the moderators to comment on Ford's partnership with TomTom for navigation versus the more obvious choice of Google (free updates of maps, POIs, etc) and asked about costs. Free for life? Subscription based?

They didn't answer my question but, in response to another viewer, said the when sold, the MME would have all of the functionality out of the box. Then he became a bit coy skirting around the question, but implying that some features (not specific) would have a cost if you wanted to continue after some (non-specified) period of time.

What this actually means is anyone's guess at this stage. But we do know that companies want a revenue stream, instead of a buy once, use for life model.

I don't expect to have "free" unlimited for life 4 or 5G video streaming. It doesn't matter to me anyway because I have a decent cellular data plan.

On the other hand, I don't expect navigation to be hobbled, nor display and updates for charging waypoints, nor the underlying data required for the Co-pilot features and so on.

It will be interesting to see how much "grace" period we get for which features.

I thought we got free subscription to things like live traffic status and real time weather updates for 3 years. After that we would pay to keep those features.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

I thought we got free subscription to things like live traffic status and real time weather updates for 3 years. After that we would pay to keep those features.

Do we know about map updates? Don't know if we do yet?

I genuinely wonder how many will use the nav vs. CarPlay/Android Auto... Especially with the instrument panel integration.

 

[SnBGC]

Others have said they haven't seen degradation so I am not sure why your experience is different, but it is your experience so I am not going to argue with you - that would be silly. If you are seeing enough degradation, I'd call in the 8/100 warranty.

It's weird to me that it's considered acceptable as a customer expectation to care about charge maximums. For one thing, what if you need the 20% in some kind of emergency and you decided "eh I don't need it and I better not do it because the car isn't smart enough to manage the battery?"

My expectation is around stated range. I won't get full range if I limit my charge arbitrarily because the car is dumb. Part of what I am paying for is the ability to go to 100% for stated range instead of playing guessing games around what I should charge to.

Limiting my charge because the car is dumb would annoy me way more than knowing there is a buffer (that can be reduced in software later if it seems to be able to take it) that lets me plug in and forget every single time.

Exactly what I do with my Fusion today.

Our 1 C-Max Energi has suffered quite a bit of battery degredation. However, I dont think limiting the SOC to 80% of whatever Ford allows would have made any difference. The forced air method for thermal management is inadequate and the battery size means that it isnt a practical thing to do anyway.



My comments are related to BEV with liquid cooled thermal management and now possibly even PHEV with liquid cooling. I will be very curious to see if Ford gives Escape PHEV users the ability to limit SOC %. My guess is they won't and that is because it doesnt matter in the whole scheme of things.

Managing the heat has the largest impact on battery performance and degredation. Charge and discharge cycles is the next issue but remember that watts is watts. Don't count how many times you plug in the car....count the watts that passes through the battery.

A cylinder type battery with a lot of connection points has different thermal concerns compared to a pouch with fewer connection points. How much energy it takes to manage the heat is a function of surface area and where the heat source is located.

Again. If limiting the SOC makes people feel better than go ahead. No harm at all except for a minor inconvenience possibly at times. There are people that still press the accelerator pedal twice before starting their car. Some also let the car warm up for 5 minutes before pulling out of the driveway. With carburetors it mattered....with fuel injection not so much.

Those that are worried about SOC would probably be dismayed to know what happens to the battery during one pedal driving...

 

[timbop]

Limiting my charge because the car is dumb would annoy me

It has nothing to do with the car being "smart" or "dumb". ALL mechanical devices are subject to wear and tear, and their lifespans can be shortened or extended depending upon how you treat them. If you never change the filter in your house's A/C, it will be less effective and fail sooner than if you do. If you change the conventional oil in your car every 10k miles the engine won't last as long as if you change it every 3500 miles. If you have a convertible top and never put protectant on it and never park it inside it will not last as long as if you do. Likewise you can baby your BEV battery or drive it hard.

ALL Li-ion batteries suffer degradation through extended use whether that degradation is visible to you or not. ALWAYS. Overcharging and deeply discharging shorten the lifespan and future ability to fully charge. ALWAYS. It is an unavoidable attribute of the way they are designed. As Scotty would say "you can't change the laws of physics".

The difference in philosophy is whether that degradation is masked from you or visible. The smaller the buffer the more you see the reality, and the larger the buffer the more it is masked from you. Those are design decisions each with their own compromises: having to pay more attention to how you charge vs always having less range than the theoretical maximum.

Even though Ford took the latter approach, I am going to do what I can to extend the battery life - just like I change my oil more frequently and put protectant on my convertible's roof. It's a personal choice.

 

[timbop]

I thought we got free subscription to things like live traffic status and real time weather updates for 3 years. After that we would pay to keep those features.

That's my impression as well. You aren't paying for map updates per se, but you have to pay for the connectivity to get them as well as live traffic, etc. Without the connectivity I suppose one could update them over wifi, but I didn't get the sense that allowing for that was a priority for Ford.

 

[dbsb3233]

I think the days of paying for map updates are pretty much over.

Especially when Google Maps is right there as an alternative.

 

[dbsb3233]

I have a Garmin with a stealth dashcam I used to use when renting cars in the Before Times and that has free updates. So yeah I think that is generally true... But Ford/HERE still send me an annual update ad for $150 or so... So it might be a case of mainstream car manufacturers being behind the times. (I know that is shocking to think about.)

I still get those for our 2013 Escapes. Just got an email this week for another $149 map card update (which I never upgrade).

I'd say it's little less about legacy manufacturers and little more about legacy vehicles. Our Escapes, for instance, still have plenty of life in them, but simply don't have the capability to run online maps. That paradigm won't go away completely for another decade until most of the older vehicles get retired.

 

[SnBGC]

It has nothing to do with the car being "smart" or "dumb". ALL mechanical devices are subject to wear and tear, and their lifespans can be shortened or extended depending upon how you treat them. If you never change the filter in your house's A/C, it will be less effective and fail sooner than if you do. If you change the conventional oil in your car every 10k miles the engine won't last as long as if you change it every 3500 miles. If you have a convertible top and never put protectant on it and never park it inside it will not last as long as if you do. Likewise you can baby your BEV battery or drive it hard.

ALL Li-ion batteries suffer degradation through extended use whether that degradation is visible to you or not. ALWAYS. Overcharging and deeply discharging shorten the lifespan and future ability to fully charge. ALWAYS. It is an unavoidable attribute of the way they are designed. As Scotty would say "you can't change the laws of physics".

The difference in philosophy is whether that degradation is masked from you or visible. The smaller the buffer the more you see the reality, and the larger the buffer the more it is masked from you. Those are design decisions each with their own compromises: having to pay more attention to how you charge vs always having less range than the theoretical maximum.

Even though Ford took the latter approach, I am going to do what I can to extend the battery life - just like I change my oil more frequently and put protectant on my convertible's roof. It's a personal choice.

Agree with everything you said. Its personal preference. If it makes you happy then I encourage the practice even though it may not be necessary. Very interesting analogy about the oil changes. We own two F250 Super Duty 7.3 liter diesel trucks. One for my wife and one for me. Daily drivers and heavy weekend warrior duty when our kids lived with us. 275k miles on hers and about 450k miles on mine. Both still running perfect with little to no blow by and engine oil lab analysis look exactly the same as when they were new. I changed engine oil every 10,000 miles which is actually MORE frequently than the lab was recommending.

There is no question the engines will last longer if oil was changed twice as often but how much longer? I have almost half a million miles on my truck......how much longer would it go with 5000 mile oil change intervals and would that be worth the time and money to increase engine life from 1.5 million miles to 2 million or more?

There are people that like to prefilled the oil filter when changing their oil because they believe it makes less wear on the engine. I used to be one of those people. However I don't worry about that any more. There is plenty of oil on the moving parts that the rotating assembly is totally fine for the second or two it takes to fill the filter. The factory doesnt pre fill the filter when they first start the engine. I have seen more engines ruined by prefilling the filter vs installing dry. (2 to none)

Like you said. Personal preference rules. Life is too short to sweat it.

 

[timbop]

I changed engine oil every 10,000 miles which is actually MORE frequently than the lab was recommending.

I'm assuming you use synthetic. My comment referenced conventional motor oil; I change my synthetic at 6k - 7k miles.

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