Darren Palmer: 5-second limit on full power acceleration will be "changed"

[generaltso]

8th letter is "M." If those dudes at the dealership lied too me, I'm going to be pissed.

You don't have an LFP battery. They probably didn't lie. But most dealers know very little about the products that they sell.

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[Jimrpa]

It's based on IEC 60364, they do things differently than the 80% rule in the NEC. With proper insulation it's a true 100% continuous rating.



If they added the Frunk button for everyone in FordPass, there would suddenly be a bunch of Job 1 people going "Oh what's this new button, and why doesn't it work?". My understanding is they were going to deploy the module update first before enabling the button in FordPass. But for whatever reason that OTA was delayed indefinitely.

Like I've said before, they should just put out a TSB for it and make it a dealer update at this point. Or just click go on the OTA already. One non-working button in FordPass is not a big deal, people will get over it until the OTA installs. There is a bunch of stuff that doesn't work right in FordPass already, so I don't think many people will be surprised or change their opinion.

I only use FordPass for very simple stuff: unlock, remote hatch release, remote start, notices from Ford. Those functions work well enough for me.
I understand the sophisticated stuff, like power consumption is … iffy ?

 

[Jimrpa]

Yeah, but who is this “Jim Farley” guy and what does he know? ?

Darren is the guy to get this done.**


**Only compliments for Darren are allowed as hopefully he gets this done for us.

Well, first, we have to hope that he’s aware the vehicle even exists ?

 

[Jimrpa]

You don't have an LFP battery. They probably didn't lie. But most dealers know very little about the products that they sell.

It should also state the battery type/capacity on the window sticker.

 

[Jimrpa]

Yes, the acceleration curve (rate of acceleration, also what you feel) goes directly hand in hand with the tq curve.

So I’ll do some rough math based on what we know (without a Dyno).

Top speed 124, top rpm- about 12,500.

So it’s about 100 rpm per mph.

hp= tq x rpm/5252

Peak tq is 634 and happens around 3000 rpm (30 mph based on where we feel peak acceleration)

But that’s only about 362 hp. So maybe at 480 hp peak tq is around 39 mph.

With 562 hp, they could extend peak tq and to around 4600 rpm (46 mph) before dropping off.

If we somehow keep a flat HP curve, we would still have 562 hp exactly all the way until the boost timer ends.

But that means by 92 mph, your rate of acceleration (and tq) is exactly half of peak.


TLDR; So…….. yes. Acceleration slows down (and tq goes down) starting around 4600 rpm or 46 mph if we got the max power our motors are capable of. And no, that’s not enough power for 10’s.

Mid 11’s at most.

This is really interesting - thanks for sharing. Something I don’t get:

hp = m X torque X RPM, right (where m is some magic constant whose units I can’t figure out)?
Why isn’t torque flat across the operational range of the motors and hp maximum at the maximum RPM?

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

I’m surprised none of you appears to have considered the possibility that “we are going to change that limit” doesn’t exclude a reduction in the five second limit… Especially since he goes on to say, “We've done that on testing to make sure the vehicle lasts the way it is expected for the customers..."

?

Ok, I’m done.

 

[Mach1E]

This is really interesting - thanks for sharing. Something I don’t get:

hp = m X torque X RPM, right (where m is some magic constant whose units I can’t figure out)?
Why isn’t torque flat across the operational range of the motors and hp maximum at the maximum RPM?

M is 1/5252

Or just ignore m. It’s hp=(tq x rpm)/5252

That’s why hp and tq are always equal at 5252 rpm (the lines cross at that point on every Dyno graph).

Example of a Tesla model 3 Dyno-

Why isn’t tq flat across the operational range?

Because we don’t have enough juice!!

If we had 634 lb ft at 10,400 rpm for example……. That’s over 1200 hp!

The closest I’ve seen to a car that made max tq near max rpm was my friends old Mustang Cobra. It had a huge F1 pro charger supercharger that makes more boost the higher the rpm. Scariest car I’ve ever driven.

It had zero power below 4,000 rpm and insane power when the boost kicked in. Roasted drag radials at 70 mph in 3rd gear.

 

[Mach-Lee]

Remy hvh motor plots!

see this for results from a pretty simple accel model

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...ssible-performance-capability-of-the-gt.9599/

So with no power limits the best the motors can do in the 1/4 is about 12.0 s @ 116 mph. Seems reasonable.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

Will this happen before or after we get the electric frunk-release enabled on '21 Job 1's?

Second Thursday after Never™.

Are they just waiting for a series of updates to bundle it into or something?

Serious answer. If they push a remote Frunk release for job 1 cars it’ll be included somewhere in the BC 1.3 updates. It’s in the maybe category last I heard.

Sarcastic part: I can’t help but remember my Scottish mother when she said: “maybe or perhaps.” That was almost never a yes.

The obvious question is: why does this have to be “beta tested”? I’d still like to know what’s different about the Job 1 vehicles that they have to beta test a back-end change. Something seems weird here.

There may have been a decision by the people responsible for FordPass to not enable the FP frunk button for Job 1 cars until a certain percentage of those cars had a remote frunk release enabled. Why? I don't know. I'm a pilot and (occasionally) a union ERISA expert. Better hope they do ship it with BC 1.3 or soon™.

Ford:

We conducted a survey and found that 95% of owners wanted remote frunk release of which 50% upgraded to a newer model just for this feature. Therefore, we will leave it disabled on Job1 vehicles in order to increase sales of newer models. /s

...
I'm inclined to believe.

I've seen it, it does exist!

No doubt about it. Still hasn't been pushed though. Soon™.

 

[JohnFoxeSheets]

Ok, I’m done.

Just remember, even Sméagol was useful in the end...

 

[Jimrpa]

M is 1/5252

Or just ignore m. It’s hp=(tq x rpm)/5252

That’s why hp and tq are always equal at 5252 rpm (the lines cross at that point on every Dyno graph).

Example of a Tesla model 3 Dyno-

Why isn’t tq flat across the operational range?

Because we don’t have enough juice!!

If we had 634 lb ft at 10,400 rpm for example……. That’s over 1200 hp!

The closest I’ve seen to a car that made max tq near max rpm was my friends old Mustang Cobra. It had a huge F1 pro charger supercharger that makes more boost the higher the rpm. Scariest car I’ve ever driven.

It had zero power below 4,000 rpm and insane power when the boost kicked in. Roasted drag radials at 70 mph in 3rd gear.

Ok, I appreciate the additional explanation. Then are the units of HP and Torque the same (foot-pounds)? I have to look at this a bit more to totally get it, but your explanations are really helpful!

 

[RickMachE]

When one gets to use both a Mach-E and a Lightning, the true frunk usability is seen with the automatic opening that the Lightning has. We never use the Mach-E frunk for that reason and the fact that it has things in it that in the Lightning are in under seat storage or in a tub in the bed. Blanket, towels, bottle of V8, trim tools for gaining access to battery if needed, ... With the truck, click the fob button or push the button and it is open.

It also is a great dinosaur mouth for our 3 year old granddaughter. "Mom, Grampy's truck is a dinosaur!"

 

[Mach1E]

Ok, I appreciate the additional explanation. Then are the units of HP and Torque the same (foot-pounds)? I have to look at this a bit more to totally get it, but your explanations are really helpful!

No.

The unit for HP is HP. Or another way to thing or HP is it’s “tq at rpm.”

You can have TQ (ft lbs) at zero RPM as well, but you will have ZERO hp…….and won’t be moving.

Assume that your strength is 1/2 horsepower.

Go get on a bicycle. Put it in a low gear.

You can accelerate quickly, but also hit a top speed that isn’t very high.

Put it in a high gear, accelerating is very slow, but you hit a higher top speed.

Has your “power” changed? Not at all. Just the gearing is different.

But notice how hard your legs have to push the pedals in the high gear vs low gear. If the gearing difference is half, you are pushing TWICE as hard.

That’s torque.

Did you suddenly get twice as strong? Of course not. The gearing just changed.

So just like how your own body’s horsepower has a limit……. So does your car motor.

You could get on a Dyno and measure your own “horsepower” at different bicycle rpm’s too!

Fun with physics.

Oh……. And energy = mass times velocity squared. So if you move twice as fast it takes 4x the energy.

TLDR; horsepower gives you an idea how much work can be done…… ie how quickly you can accelerate because it takes tq and rpm into account.

 

[HuntingPudel]

Ok, I appreciate the additional explanation. Then are the units of HP and Torque the same (foot-pounds)? I have to look at this a bit more to totally get it, but your explanations are really helpful!

No HP is a unit of work over time. Torque is a radial force measured in lbs/ft or n/m. ??

 

[Kevin P]

HP is a measure of power. It can also be expressed in watts. 1 HP is ~746watts. For cars, its typically measured in kilowatts (KW, metric unit) or Horsepower (English unit.) Torque is a force measurement. lb-ft or newton/meters. Be aware that the 5252 rpm rule ONLY works for horsepower and pound feet. It is nothing magical, its just where the two numbers are equal in those units. If you use KW and N-m, they aren't equal at 5252 rpm.

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