The New Tesla / NACS Charging Connector Explained

[superdave80]

I wonder if it's a loss issue? When I wireless charge my phone at only, what, 18 Watts, things get pretty warm. I can't imagine what kind of heat ~10 KW would generate

That's what I thought as well, but apparently this is an issue only for low power devices like a phone. From Wikipedia:

" The following disadvantages have been noted for low-power (i.e., less than 100 watts) inductive charging devices, and may not apply to high-power (i.e., greater than 5 kilowatts) electric vehicle inductive charging systems.[citation needed] "

'citation needed', so not sure how accurate this is, but a wireless charging company, Witricity (not exactly non-biased) states efficiencies in the same 90% range as wired EV charging.

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[eleven24]

Even more bizzare is that Ford (in its infinite wisdom) will send this info to your phone FROM your car, but not onto the actual screen of said car. I swear, Ford has some strange phobia of giving us info about our vehicle.

Let's not forget that Ford will let you know how many kW were added to your car, but only if you catch it in the "Charge Complete" screen. Once you go to charge history Ford believes one only needs to see the percentage you charged from and to.

 

[AngryMan]

Here in Ohio they recently just installed some Tesla chargers at some rest stops on the turnpike.
First chance I had I pulled in to see them . Not one MagicDock. Not sure why I expected anything different .
80 year olds making decisions about tech that they have no idea about or experience with .
They have every last EV drivers address from DMV registrations. Maybe send some emails or have a comment period where we , the people with the vehicles , can give some guidance that comes from our experiences or needs .

 

[dbsb3233]

Too bad they aren’t more visually distinctive - like an informational display or something. That’s one thing I think that’s weird about Tesla superchargers - there’s absolutely NO user interface.

FWIW, by the time you get to the station to see it, it's too late. More important that it show up in apps/nav to know whether to go to that station at all.

 

[Jimrpa]

FWIW, by the time you get to the station to see it, it's too late. More important that it show up in apps/nav to know whether to go to that station at all.

I’ve always maintained that one of the biggest problem with public charging is that it doesn’t mirror the ubiquitous gas station model. I don’t have to look at a pump to know the hose will fit the filler in my car. I don’t need to download and configure a different app for every pump, and I (usually) don’t have to worry about “member’s only” pricing or monthly fees, just for the privilege of buying gas ?

 

[kodiakng]

I'm sure they will eventually. In the meantime, you can filter them by power in the Tesla app. V2 stations are 150kW while V3 stations are 250kW.

the best resource i've found for current supercharger installations (operational, in permitting, construction, etc) is:

supercharge.info

doing a quick look at their data, the number of operational supercharger stations (not charger/plugs) by version in north america are:

v1 (72kW): 162
v2 (120 or 150kW): 653
v3 (250kW): 1311

the 12,000 number thrown about obviously refers to number of actual chargers so that means the v3 distribution has an average of 9+ chargers per station. it's harder to tease the actual charger/stall/plug data out of the supercharger.info site.

 

[TheSteelRider]

I’ve always maintained that one of the biggest problem with public charging is that it doesn’t mirror the ubiquitous gas station model. I don’t have to look at a pump to know the hose will fit the filler in my car. I don’t need to download and configure a different app for every pump, and I (usually) don’t have to worry about “member’s only” pricing or monthly fees, just for the privilege of buying gas ?

+++++++++1

It's maddening. The gas station model might not be the perfect model, but I cannot for the life of me understand why nobody, and I mean NOBODY in America hasn't thought, "hmmmmm can't we just make all this nonsense simpler, like a gas pump"

 

[mdolan92869]

+++++++++1

It's maddening. The gas station model might not be the perfect model, but I cannot for the life of me understand why nobody, and I mean NOBODY in America hasn't thought, "hmmmmm can't we just make all this nonsense simpler, like a gas pump"

Because gas stations are fuming that they couldn't do the app model first and would love to tie people into that instead of the easy way that they have now. What's the incentive for making charging easy? It sucks, but that's what's happening with the world lately. Use our app, sign up for our newsletter, take this 5 minute survey to let us know how we did, enter your phone number to get a miniscule discount, let me hoover up all of your personal data so I can sell it to the highest bidder.

 

[alangant]

I’ve always maintained that one of the biggest problem with public charging is that it doesn’t mirror the ubiquitous gas station model. I don’t have to look at a pump to know the hose will fit the filler in my car. I don’t need to download and configure a different app for every pump, and I (usually) don’t have to worry about “member’s only” pricing or monthly fees, just for the privilege of buying gas ?

If i remember correctly, any new chargers funded by the Federal grants must be available to be accessed with only a credit card. Of course, they could still use apps or other methods, too.

 

[dbsb3233]

I’ve always maintained that one of the biggest problem with public charging is that it doesn’t mirror the ubiquitous gas station model. I don’t have to look at a pump to know the hose will fit the filler in my car. I don’t need to download and configure a different app for every pump, and I (usually) don’t have to worry about “member’s only” pricing or monthly fees, just for the privilege of buying gas ?

Sure, it eventually all needs to be standardized. But we're still in relative infancy. Gas pumps weren't standardized in their first decade either.

It'll get there. Of course, they have to find a way to make it profitable before it can really take off.

 

[dbsb3233]

the best resource i've found for current supercharger installations (operational, in permitting, construction, etc) is:

supercharge.info

doing a quick look at their data, the number of operational supercharger stations (not charger/plugs) by version in north america are:

v1 (72kW): 162
v2 (120 or 150kW): 653
v3 (250kW): 1311

the 12,000 number thrown about obviously refers to number of actual chargers so that means the v3 distribution has an average of 9+ chargers per station. it's harder to tease the actual charger/stall/plug data out of the supercharger.info site.

That's actually a better number because it's stations that really count more than chargers. Assuming nearly all stations have one charger version, that is. So roughly 61% of stations will be usable to us. Pretty good but definitely something we'll have to check before planning a road trip route.

Unfortunately it seems like it's more urban stations and fewer rural ones that are the V3's, in the small sampling I've done. I don't care about urban DCFC. That's a waste of resources to me. I need them on road trip routes. And the place I REALLY need an SC backup to a bad EA station is Green River UT. No DCFC for 100 miles either direction on I-70. But figures, the SC station there is only V2. ?

 

[kodiakng]

sorry, just getting back to this. i shouldn't have started a frustration post when i knew i was going to be slammed for the next day+.

I'm very interested in your point of view, but it really sounds exactly the same as what Alex is saying, e.g., that different protocols can be run on the same physical connector, and the same protocol can be run on different connectors.

the title and his intro premise "The more we learn, the less we know" is just click bait and disingenuous and it sets the tone for the entire video. as time goes on we're learning more and the picture is getting clearer. he didn't bring up any NEW questions in the video or show why we know LESS. if he would have arranged his video to be one to clarify issues instead of muddying them it would have served the EV community much more effectively.

there is absolutely no question ford, et al signed up for the NACS standard as described by tesla's NACS documents AND for access to tesla's v3 and future superchargers in the supercharger network. that is explicitly stated in their press releases and interviews since then. there is no reason to even discuss the SW-CAN protocol for non-tesla auto manufacturers because it does nothing for them in terms of access to the agreed superchargers. no one besides tesla is going to implement tesla's proprietary SW-CAN on their vehicles, ever - full stop.

tesla has obviously signaled that current v3 and all future superchargers will implement at least the DIN 70121 and ISO 15118 protocols to allow access to non-tesla vehicles. they are designing and manufacturing (or having manufactured) adapters to allow CCS1 vehicles to connect and will make those adapters available to companies for sale (ford has repeated this a few times).

alex just muddies the water unnecessarily.

his commentary about PLC is also fluffed with red herring. PLC is a general class (Power Line Communication/Carrier) of protocols and different physical/logical specifications are used in different situations. the PLC communication in standard use between EVSE and EV is HomePlug Green PHY and is not the same as what is used in other power grid situations as he alludes to unnecessarily.

tesla is implementing PLC and CCS protocols because they had to for global sales; EU and china mandated it and even musk can see fighting that is a losing battle. this includes both their cars and their superchargers. for their supercharger network there is currently little current benefit to eliminating their proprietary SW-CAN since it is baked in and will give them a reliability and connection speed advantage for tesla owners. they may eventually but i don't see it for a decade or so.

one question he brings up has been glaringly apparent from the beginning and we do not have answers to: cord length. but it is not a NEW question.

for some reason he expounds on "calendar year 2024" and "calendar year 2025" like there is some magic there. ford has explicitly said the NACS-CCS1 adapter will be available in "spring 2024" and existing vehicles will have access to v3 superchargers. as with any deployment like this the dates are fuzzy and may slip but there is no reason to make a statement as broad as "calendar year 2024". ford has been cagy on how they will roll out actually adding the NACS port to their models but it could easily be model year 2025 for some and later for others; similarly for other manufacturers. yes, there is some vagueness there but these are not NEW questions. and in any case, vehicles with CCS1 ports will be able to access the tesla v3 and future superchargers - full stop.

he then makes a big deal about whether the charge point operators will implement the SW-CAN protocol on their NACS cords to support older tesla cars on their stations but then immediately admits it isn't an issue. so why bring it up in the first place like it is some glaring question? i posed this question here a couple weeks ago but it was mostly tongue in cheek for the same reason.

the section around NACS concerns about V2L, V2H, V2G, V2<anything> are also non-issues, are not NEW questions, and aren't specific to NACS. CCS and all the other connector types have the exact same issue: there is no set standard right now for any of those options. the physical tesla/NACS connector will support it just fine when there are available systems and communications protocols worked out to make it happen. this might be called "wild west" but it is definitely not NEW.

the section where he starts talking about 800V system capability, especially around those automakers that have 800V architectures, is quite muddy. tesla v3 superchargers are 500V/500+A systems (250kW peak) and we can ignore v2 systems since they aren't on offer for NACS adoptees. tesla v4 superchargers are expected to be 800-1000V/600A systems. the v4 details are sketchy and have been for a long time and aren't NEW questions. he tosses off a comment that "NACS will support what some people are calling megawatt charging it's not actually megawatt charging it's 600kW charging". there IS a standard being pushed called Megawatt Charging System for the trucking industry but alex does nothing to provide clarity to differentiate colloquial commentary from actual terms in use.

he does miss an opportunity in this section to describe the issues surrounding 800V architecture cars charging on 400V (nominal) systems. there are a lot out there and definitely will have challenges owners should know about.

he then comments a lot about costs around the NACS connector and charge port in the car without any details. these aren't questions consumers need to worry about; manufacturers will but it is all part of the vehicle design and integration process they do all the time. i happen to agree with Munro & Associates determination that the system in total will save costs but alex doesn't give anything to counter that other than handwaving that it is an issue.

he then whines about adapters without any clear points. ford has made clear tesla is designing and manufacturing (or having manufactured) adapters to allow CCS1 vehicles to connect and will make those adapters available to companies for sale. third party manufacturers have announced adapters but haven't started selling them as far as i know. on the con side, charge point operators have expressed concerns about quality and safety issues around ALL adapters, not just NACS-CCS1 ones and they may try to lock out non-approved ones. i personally think that will be a losing game but hey EA is gonna EA. there is no NEW issue here.

his entire video could have just been the portion between 17:19 and 17:38. it's perfect.

from 17:38 on however, he goes off the rails about who will have access to the tesla supercharger network. he cautions that access to the supercharger network for existing vehicles is only "theoretical" - that is just hogwash. ford, et al have all said their agreement is for existing CCS1 vehicles to have access to v3 superchargers and that they will implement NACS on their vehicles. alex is just muddying the water. he also brings up the tesla CAN protocol AGAIN - that is not an issue to be concerned about and he should have excised it from the his list of "questions".

as you can see i had a few thoughts. ?

 

[kodiakng]

That's actually a better number because it's stations that really count more than chargers. Assuming nearly all stations have one charger version, that is. So roughly 61% of stations will be usable to use. Pretty good but definitely something we'll have to check before planning a road trip route.

Unfortunately it seems like it's more urban stations and fewer rural ones that are the V3's, in the small sampling I've done. I don't care about urban DCFC. That's a waste of resources to me. I need them on road trip routes. And the place I REALLY need an SC backup to a bad EA station is Green River UT. No DCFC for 100 miles either direction on I-70. But figures, the SC station there is only V2. ?

my own tea leaf reading:

common supposition: tesla's cybertruck is expected to be an 800V architecture
fact: none of tesla's current NA superchargers are 800V

assuming (and we know where that gets us) the common supposition is true, how quickly do you think they are going to deploy their shiny new v4 superchargers to support their new white whale?

 

[TheSteelRider]

for some reason he expounds on "calendar year 2024" and "calendar year 2025" like there is some magic there.

Because, traditionally, a "car model year" is different than a "calendar year". For example, a "2025 model Chevrolet Donk" will actually start being produced in the middle of 2024. Alex is pointing out that, if an automaker says "2025" do they they mean "2025 model year vehicles" (which would mean vehicles starting production mid-2024), or "vehicles beginning production in 2025" (which would mean 2026 model year vehicles).

 

[TheSteelRider]

the section where he starts talking about 800V system capability, especially around those automakers that have 800V architectures, is quite muddy. tesla v3 superchargers are 500V/500+A systems (250kW peak) and we can ignore v2 systems since they aren't on offer for NACS adoptees. tesla v4 superchargers are expected to be 800-1000V/600A systems. the v4 details are sketchy and have been for a long time and aren't NEW questions. he tosses off a comment that "NACS will support what some people are calling megawatt charging it's not actually megawatt charging it's 600kW charging". there IS a standard being pushed called Megawatt Charging System for the trucking industry but alex does nothing to provide clarity to differentiate colloquial commentary from actual terms in use.

Well, there is a 40% difference between the value that people will assume "megawatt" means vs. what NACs will actually be capable of. 40% difference seems to warrant at least a comment?

If Elsie The Cow marketed an upcoming "gallon jug of milk" that, in fact, only contained a little over 1/2 gallon of milk (~76 oz) I think that warrants at least a comment about marketing wank, no?

Especially coming from a company that has consistently marketed the range of their vehicles to be upwards of 30% wrong and the capability for customers to buy a package for the car to "fully drive itself" only to discover that, nope it actually doesn't, even what are we now 7 years on after it will be "complete this year".

I think Alex is right to comment that what we have now is a series of untrustworthy companies (Tesla, EVgo, Electrify America, et. al) announcing marketing wank some 1 - 2 years before an integration is to be enabled. There are a large amount of people who seem to be convinced that the Tesla connector itself is the secret sauce, and therefore since other vehicles will use the connector all manner of world issues will now be solved. When in reality, the secret sauce is probably more in the vehicle's software stack.

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