Any guesses on our MME NCM battery life expectancy??

[OH2AZ2OH]

Damn 30% is completely useless. Hope that is a fluke

30% loss for a first gen Leaf is completely normal. I was looking at them for my 16 yr old, figuring it would be good first car. Not too expensive, can't go very far, and if they speed, really really can't go far. But the degradation combined with a silly optimistic GOM seemed like asking for trouble.

If I remember right, the early Leafs had only air cooling for the batteries. The second gen Leaf added air water cooling, and look to be having much better battery health. There's likely other factors, but heat kills batteries. Outside of first gen Leafs, the other category of drivers seeing high degradation are Tesla owners that almost exclusively fast charge, and those are still better than the Leafs.

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[BlackGT PE]

30% loss for a first gen Leaf is completely normal. I was looking at them for my 16 yr old, figuring it would be good first car. Not too expensive, can't go very far, and if they speed, really really can't go far. But the degradation combined with a silly optimistic GOM seemed like asking for trouble.

If I remember right, the early Leafs had only air cooling for the batteries. The second gen Leaf added air cooling, and look to be having much better battery health. There's likely other factors, but heat kills batteries. Outside of first gen Leafs, the other category of drivers seeing high degradation are Tesla owners that almost exclusively fast charge, and those are still better than the Leafs.

 

[BlackGT PE]

Yeah the science seems to confirm that heat and frequent DC fast charging degrades the batteries much faster. I only charge at home on my level 2 garage charger over night.

 

[BlackGT PE]

Correct. However, most people are caught a little off guard when they hear the current AGM 12v batteries for today's modern ICE vehicles are around $200. Then there is the very limited availability of the very unique battery itself (the one for the MME only fits the MME and Lightning) , which can be a problem if the 12v battery is dead and will not accept a charge.

 

[BlackGT PE]

Good to know man! I assume I have to take it to the dealer to run diagnostic test on that battery to see when it’s ready to be replaced?

 

[Nikos]

Bought my MME GTPE last month and love this car! Was thinking about how long I could realistically keep it before the battery is ready to be trashed. I’d appreciate anyone’s thoughts on how many years you would expect to get out of your MMEs batteries? I charge about 40% 5 nights a week to 90% each time, and park in my garage.
Thanks!

Hello fellow member. I hope you're enjoying your GT PE.
My MME Premium, Job 1, is three years old now. Ford advertised the battery pack will be able to deliver 270 miles of range when full. Three years later, I am still getting 275-280 miles of range at 45-50°, outside temp, while charging at home before long distance trips. At 70-80°, outside temp, I see 290 miles of range. 37 months later and I am getting the stated mileage that Ford promised the MME will deliver.
We knew then, back in 2021, that Ford, underpromised and over delivered.
In the beginning, I would charge to 325-330 miles of range. Today, I still getting more miles than was stated by Ford.
Outside temps play a big role, BUT, charging habits play a big role also.
Honestly, I follow Tesla's recommendations too. Charge to 80% while at home regularly and to 100% when ready to drive long distances.
You Tube can provide you with some videos of how to maintain a healthy SOC of your battery, how to maintain the health of your battery, as best as you can, and what exactly happens during L2 charging vs L3 DCFC events.
90% won't hurt, unless you need that charge for your daily commutes.
Good luck.

 

[hartmms]

So that 12v is a cheap battery replacement just like any ICE battery would be then.

The 12v battery is not a traditional lead acid battery. It's an Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) battery. It won't be as cheap as a 12v lead acid. Maybe like 2x the cost. My 12v AGM battery didn't last 12 months, but I'm in Phoenix and maybe got a unit on the wrong end of the quality curve. 100% covered under 3 year warranty.

But yes, cheap compared to the HV battery and easily replaceable. Check out the 12v battery FAQ thread if you want to learn more.

 

[Jtbuster]

It's not harmful to the battery.



A charge rate of 44 kW is less than half the 1-hour charge/discharge rate for the ER battery. Battery longevity is given in terms of how many full cycles of charge/discharge can be done with a 1-hour full discharge or charge rate (called "1C") being the standard. These batteries have around 2,000 to 4,000 cycles before they will exhibit a degradation of no more than about 20% in maximum capacity.



If you're discharging and then charging 20% every day, it will take 5 days of charging to equal a "full charge cycle." If you're doing it at 50% of the 1C charge rate, that means you have a little less than twice the cycle lifetime (this gets complicated). But let's assume you're using the 1C rate (about 91kW rate for the ER battery). This would mean you have 2,000 or more weeks of use before you're likely to see <80% of original capacity.



That's >38 years.

 

[bbulkow]

Bought my MME GTPE last month and love this car! Was thinking about how long I could realistically keep it before the battery is ready to be trashed. I’d appreciate anyone’s thoughts on how many years you would expect to get out of your MMEs batteries? I charge about 40% 5 nights a week to 90% each time, and park in my garage.
Thanks!

I think the wildcard in these glowing calculations is whether a person DC fast charges, and how much. It seems with these batteries, DC fast charging is designed to be an occasional road trip feature, not an everyday feature.

I agree with - and did for myself - the calculations of overnight L2 charging. I am expecting great lifespan.

Here's my real world numbers.

I think the car is telling me I have 1 percent degradation after 18k miles so far, and if that holds I'll have 10% after 180k, which would thrill me. ( I recently did the "BMS reset" procedure so think the number is likely to be correct).

Doing simple math: 18k miles, at 3.6kwh/m, is 5000 kwh. According to carscanner, the actual battery size is 107kwh, so I've done 46 full charges. If I'm supposed to get 2000 full charges for 20% degradation, I should get 1% at about 100 full charges, so I'm behind by about 2x and certainly not on track to get 4000 full charges or 40+ year lifespan. It's possible my overall efficiency isn't 3.6, but I don't think it's below 3.0.

While this is concerning, I am dealing with small numbers (1%... Maybe it's 0.8, maybe it's 1.2?....), I'm on track to 10% degradation at 180,000 miles and 20% at 360k. I'd be super happy for this car to be going strong at 150k or 200k, so these numbers are very good even if they don't align with "20% at 2000 full charges".

I have my charger set to delay like it says in the manual (actually, the car doesn't have a setting for this - I have it set for a time which is always a few hours after I get home and always charges before morning - the correct car setting would be "within this time window *and* when the battery temperature is within optimal range", right Ford? You could do that?) I have L3 charged a handful of times just to make sure it works .

I'm really interested what people who are 100% DC fast charging are seeing for degradation. The battery state of health indicator is in carscanner, that's the car's internal number, so you don't have to try to use the GOM to guess degradation.

The other wild card would be high acceleration. I don't know how GTPE might factor in? With my ER battery, RWD owner, my wide open throttle is puny in comparison (and with the ER battery, even lower strain), but full throttle in your car may be much, much more?

 

[Maquis]

Damn 30% is completely useless. Hope that is a fluke

You have to realize that the older Leafs have almost no thermal battery management. It would be easy to degrade 30% using poor charging practices. It‘s much more difficult to abuse the battery in a modern EV.

 

[AliRafiee]

Damn 30% is completely useless. Hope that is a fluke

Nope. About half are like that. They have the capacity indicator on the dash. If the ad has a picture of the dash you can see it there.

Battery chemistry and the programming of the battery management system determine nominal battery "life". Throwing in a comment about the early LEAF is like comparing the life of a Chevy Vega engine in a discussion about Mercedes diesels. My comments and info only apply to NMC chemistry in cylindrical cells. There are too many variables if you include any battery and any manufacturer. However the title of this thread specifically says "MME NCM" (more commonly known by NMC). To minimize confusion and irrelevant anecdotes about a wide range of batteries, I request we keep info to the NMC battery chemistry used in the MME.

I was just pointing out that there are more variables that are not easy to plug into a formula.

 

[AliRafiee]

Just the first one I looked at. $35K miles and less than 50% battery capacity

 

[engnrng]

Good to know man! I assume I have to take it to the dealer to run diagnostic test on that battery to see when it’s ready to be replaced?

How often did you take your ICE 12V battery to the dealer to have it checked? With an EV there is no starter motor to age the old lead acid. My experience is that the 12v battery only needs to boot the computer, which it can do down to about 10v. AGM is a longer life 12V, so I expect my EV 12V battery to last 1.5 to 2x longer than on a gas car. Another maintenance cost saving vs gas cars, like not needing a brake job until 150,000 to 200,000 miles...

 

[AlpaChino]

Clearly the 12v. Cleaning terminals gave it away.

Wait, so I'm not supposed to be scrubbing underneath the orange caps??? Now you tell me.

 

[Maquis]

How often did you take your ICE 12V battery to the dealer to have it checked? With an EV there is no starter motor to age the old lead acid. My experience is that the 12v battery only needs to boot the computer, which it can do down to about 10v. AGM is a longer life 12V, so I expect my EV 12V battery to last 1.5 to 2x longer than on a gas car. Another maintenance cost saving vs gas cars, like not needing a brake job until 150,000 to 200,000 miles...

Our 12V keeps a bunch of stuff running when the car is off. Otherwise, things like remote connectivity wouldn’t work. Not as much drain as Tesla, but not zero.

Lead-acid batteries like staying fully charged, like they generally are in an ICE. Our undersized 35 A-H batteries get discharged below 50% frequently enough that the life is shortened.

My Ryobi mower had AGM batteries. 3 years and 54 hours of run time and they were shot. When it was new, it never went below 50% per use, so it should have been an easy use case. Replaced with LiFePo4. The mower should wear out before these batteries.

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