Android Will Power Ford Vehicle Navigation Starting in 2023

[BlueMach]

I'm very surprised how worried everyone is here, especially with how many software developers I see. I'm not sure how many people have ever seen a project A) launch on time and B) immediately deprecate the old version. Lets say this project goes off perfectly and in 2 years the 2023 MachE launches with this new system, I have high doubts that they would ever consider stopping support for the QNX anytime soon. Just look at this LTS chart on wikipedia, huge software has year or longer support. I imagine a car's software ends up in a similar bucket.

Also, I'm confused what software updates could be so critical to you enjoying your car that you would feel outdated in a few years?

I was planning on doing options before, still planning on it, but the software my car runs is the thing I am least concerned about becoming outdated in 3 years

The entire selling point of the Mach-E's OTAs is that the car will add features and improve over time. I definitely don't think the Mach-E would be worth such a high MSRP without that explicit promise from Ford that they can roll out features after purchase.

Looking at what they did with SYNC 1 and SYNC 2, dropping features with little warning and abandoning the platform for updates, I have very little confidence that with this change announced so far in advance that Ford will keep a team working on new features for the QNX cars when they could make a "bigger splash" if they pivoted to launching all the new features on Android.

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[Kamuelaflyer]

Meme's as the ultimate statement on reality.

 

[kdryden99]

So if you order next year you might end up with a 2023 which will already come with an android OS. Does it mean itll be better? no, but im not crazy about hearing my imfotainment system is already "old" and i might only get this car in june. Every time i get a good piece of news with this car its followed by bad news. As if I shouldnt be buying this car. Its not like I can upgrade the hud with an aftermarket system. Thats the big difference with this car. You're stuck with what you have and we havent even talked about resale value if our cars wont receive the updates that the newer MME's get. Who wants to buy a car that might not be supported the following year or 2 years?!

 

[Jimrpa]

I'd really hate to see the automotive market ceded to Google as what's happened with Education. The business model just doesn't have the room for essentially giving the sw away when you don't profit off the data later. Sadly I don't see a realization of this at Apple Park, even with all the on/off effort on Titan.

That's why you shouldn't "give" things away. You'll note that Apple does not "give" things away.

 

[solarmoo900]

There's a difference between "support" and "improvement."

Technically Ford still "supports" MyFord Touch in my 2013 since I can replace failed hardware and still download the last software release, and I can still get new annual map updates for the Navigation, and MyFord Mobile fully works, but I am not holding my breath on them fixing the spelling bug I know of, the Bluetooth bug I know of, or the Surround Sound setting bug I know of. There is a set of features like "Vehicle Health Reports" that don't work any longer and never will work again, and they didn't even bother releasing a build removing those features.

Windows 10 has an 18 or 24 month support policy for standard consumer releases (https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/lifecycle/products/Windows-10-home-and-pro). Apple doesn't publish an iOS life cycle last I checked, but everyone sort of assumes "you must be current." Android is kind of all over the place depending on the device and Android release.

Given that literally nobody but Tesla has been successful in real OTA at this point, it's perfectly reasonable to be at least somewhat concerned about Sync 4(a) hitting a wall here. We just don't know right now.

So I looked up this "Vehicle Health Reports" system and it appears that they supported it for 3 years at the latest release. The system came out in 2007, cancelled in 2018. Sync 4a, from everything I could find so I could be wrong, is literally just getting released in 2020. Guessing that it takes years to develop, you think they might just throw it all away. If it stays with a similar cycle, you could have support till 2031. I highly doubt it will be that long but I would find it utterly crazy to assume that Ford will support this for 2 years then dump all the work.

To bring up that a 2013 car is no longer 100% supported seems odd when I'm sure a ton of people would be super happy is in 2029 the MachE is getting any updates.

The entire selling point of the Mach-E's OTAs is that the car will add features and improve over time. I definitely don't think the Mach-E would be worth such a high MSRP without that explicit promise from Ford that they can roll out features after purchase.

Looking at what they did with SYNC 1 and SYNC 2, dropping features with little warning and abandoning the platform for updates, I have very little confidence that with this change announced so far in advance that Ford will keep a team working on new features for the QNX cars when they could make a "bigger splash" if they pivoted to launching all the new features on Android.

But doesn't Ford have a ton to lose here by just dropping everything to get that "bigger splash". Like people are forgetting that with Options, Ford has guaranteed a buy back price. If in 3 years someone walks into the dealership looking for a used one, you think its gonna sell at all if they have to say "so yeah, this car doesn't get any more updates but promise everything works fine and you don't need to worry about it".

It honestly feels weird again defending this all. I worked in B2B software for ages and the amount of legacy support needed just for companies is crazy. Ford has the money and the bandwidth to not just kill a platform and devalue all their cars immediately so this is 100% not going to keep me awake at night wondering if my car has received it's last software update.

 

[ab13]

So I looked up this "Vehicle Health Reports" system and it appears that they supported it for 3 years at the latest release. The system came out in 2007, cancelled in 2018. Sync 4a, from everything I could find so I could be wrong, is literally just getting released in 2020. Guessing that it takes years to develop, you think they might just throw it all away. If it stays with a similar cycle, you could have support till 2031. I highly doubt it will be that long but I would find it utterly crazy to assume that Ford will support this for 2 years then dump all the work.

Embedded systems are going to have a lifecycle of at least 10 years. Microsoft supports theirs for 10 years or longer. It seems embedded XP had over 17 years of support. The issues may be ease of applications, since the Android system could enable popular Android apps.

Perhaps they could offer an upgrade for those who want it, including new hardware if they are on a new version.

 

[kdryden99]

Embedded systems are going to have a lifecycle of at least 10 years. Microsoft supports theirs for 10 years or longer. It seems embedded XP had over 17 years of support. The issues may be ease of applications, since the Android system could enable popular Android apps.

Perhaps they could offer an upgrade for those who want it, including new hardware if they are on a new version.

That may be so, but as we have seen with cellphones and in the current automotive industry, they do not follow conventional embedded systems lifecycles. Especially now a days where security is the primary concern, many times a full overhaul is chosen over patching just because its easier. I hope you are right but the embedded systems that had such a long lifespan were because they were part of a closed system. With the cars coming out today, they are a connected system which requires more maintenance, more security, more patches.
Only the software companies know how long they are willing to maintain the system, which is why this announcement is worrisome. Ford had to have asked QNX "how long will you support this OS?" if its 10yrs then why the rush to change in 2023? you could announce it in 2027. I dont know. Microsoft announces their next Os roughly 2 years before end of support and sometimes that gets extended by 2 more years to allow companies to update themselves. If we follow that lifecycle that gives us 4yrs on sync4a. For a car i was going to keep for 10yrs min, thats a big difference. Im starting to think leasing might be a better option right now.

 

[krafty81]

Great info here. I am of the opinion that Ford will not do a good job supporting this OS past 2023. I watched this with my current system - their answer to an obsolete system was "go get a new (whatever your car is)"! I was a buy and hold guy but am now considering Ford options to cover all the bases here.

I have a hard time conceiving that OTA updates for our cars will be given the same priority "post Android"...

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

If we follow that lifecycle that gives us 4yrs on sync4a. For a car i was going to keep for 10yrs min, thats a big difference. Im starting to think leasing might be a better option right now.

There are far too many questions raised by this announcement. Surely Ford knew that such an announcement would raise these very questions. And while we’re all “iffing,” many of us are reevaluating purchase and leases and a few are reconsidering altogether.

A quick follow up is needed by Ford.

 

[TheSeg]

I think I have the reputation around here to leaning on the side of Apple on things. But I welcome this news as it’s one of the better deals to make in regards of the situation. Rather than quoting folks, I’ll just highlight my points.

History time!
When the concept of Sync was first known, the partnership was with Microsoft and Ford. Windows Embedded Automotive existed before the deal, but for after-market add-ons to cars. My thoughts were the good news was an external technology partner was brought in to modernize what I felts cars had to be: A technology device. The bad news to me was Microsoft not consistent on embedded or dedicated hardware, with unique exception of Xbox.

In 2015, Ford went to Blackberry’s QNX, replacing MS Automative. At the time, it was the closest to an off-the-shelf OS to for an embedded car system. And it worked for then. It wasn't quite rolling your own system, but the demands weren't there.

The thread you can see along the years is Ford not building a system completely in-house. Though it depends on what components you want to pay for putting in the car, a leaner embedded system can reduce your hardware costs. The trade off is narrowed software capabilities.

We are long past the days where a low-powered embedded system will cut it. Not only with customer expectations, but with the functions of a BEV vehicle needing more compute. Traditional embedded systems are more a liability than a cost saving feature.


Google is currently the best available partner for Ford.
Now everything that needs a touchscreen is a mobile or a desktop OS. Which is not a bad thing! It’s the advancements of technology — which means components are cheaper — that makes for good progress.

Self-Made Approach
Ford could choose an existing Unix/Linux distro and roll their own systems in-house. This is what Tesla is currently doing, but not the only valid approach.

You can control your destiny this way, but you're also responsible for every little thing. Having lived every year of my life under Ford, I honestly don’t see Ford putting in the work and resources to make that happen, let alone successfully. Ultimately, the limited resources just isn't supportive of customers in a 3-10 year span of the car product itself.

Apple
I would like to see Apple as a partner, but the reality is that neither party is ready to work with each other — assuming either would be willing. Apple is not ready to go to market with an offering, whatever Titan ends up being.

Apple wants to control as many as the parts as that is part of their design process. They may not always hit the mark, but Apple's design focus is about the experience of the product.

It's not tight control for the power trip. The process is reducing compromises for a quality product. Apple also benefits not needing to enter the market as soon as possible for financial needs. They will release product when they feel ready. This does not match Ford's timeline, so it's not going to happen. I don't fault Apple or Ford for this; it just doesn't make sense now.

Google & Android Automotive (AA)
Google’s made some serious efforts into the space in the past few years. While I need some time with the docs, we are talking about the presentation and interaction layer of a system. Google isn't running the car bumper-to-bumper; it's receiving data, interpreting data, and letting the user interact with certain functions.

Ford still runs the car, but doesn't have to worry about implementing the newest version of Spotify or a Taco Bell in-car ordering app. Even years after initial release.

The dangers are Google dropping the product. What makes me less worried about this particular instance is it's a subset of the Android OS with a number of companies buying into long term support contracts. Unlike Stadia which barely got industry (game publisher) buy-in, AA is doing pretty well. Never say never, but it's a safer bet than other Google initiatives.


Will the Mach-E 2021.0 eventually run Android Auto?

The $43k - $61k question. The possibility is there, especially as Android Auto (AA) is marketed in part as a replacement for QNX. I don’t have definitive answers, but I’d like to explore the factors involved.

Will the hardware itself will accept Android Auto? Mainly, it comes down to how close the Mach-E’s components. Currently the development platform for AA is a Pixel 3 or 4 XL, so I’m hopeful the hardware to run a big screen tablet for QNX satisfies AA's needs. But there's a lot I don't know about the Mach-E's systems to make a qualified guess. There is a path for systems running QNX to work, but I have no data to speculate on.

Assuming the hardware can support a transition, Ford will need the desire to support the now Sync 4a systems. This is ultimately a business decision than anything else. So I'm hopeful? ??‍


But what do you think, Seg?

If/when AA is offered on the my Mach-E, I will absolutely transition to it. I would even float paying for a hardware upgrade if that was the upgrade path. But I hope it’s not that involved of a process.

Sure, I wish Apple was ready with a product. I would much prefer Apple’s approach to prioritize computing and security on-device before going to the cloud. I can hope for AA to work with my iOS devices, but I know it won’t have the full integration. The value I’d still have with an AA system is ongoing maintenance and feature expansion; beyond what Ford's QNX would plan to offer.

What happened today is an end of support announcement of QNX on Ford products. Which is fine, if the roadmap includes an upgrade path for existing models that are hardware capable.

Today was an opportunity for Ford to illustrate long term support of automative technology.
Today, the communication department failed to tell this story.

 

[SashaLondon]

I’m nervous and am going to change my lease plan to 2 years I think because of this.

 

[RobertP]

We didn't choose for the Polestar because of Android. I hate google having all my data and the fact that they want to analyse my driving data and store all my spoken word in the car, including private phone call. It makes me want to skip buying a Ford from 2023 on and hope they don't update the system in the Mach-E. This is nog good news at all.
Besides that, Google is already blackmailing the Australian government where a ban of Google is being spoken of. So what happens to cars using the system?

 

[SteveUk]

I remember blackberry putting a lot of effort into their own Blackberry 10 which they eventually sacked their developers for and moved to Android. Ironically the best asset they recovered from all their work was QNX and they very much proudly took that as the big revenue maker into Ford etc - looks like they are now going to be worried about QNX and whether android will now make it obsolete.

People here are suggesting that Ford could put the Sync tech on top of Android or something? I remember that being a total waste of effort also when blackberry tried to emulate Android.

All paths eventually lead to what they saw as the future and most economic way which was to ditch their s/w and put android on their phones.

I think it's therefore delusional to think sync will be saved. I also think they wouldn't have announced this if they could avoid to at this time and empty promises by twitter than it wont affect anything until 2023 just means in 2023 at the earliest they will have a model refresh and sync will be replaced by android.

Then they will do the thing where they say "we tried to but couldn't get andriod running on the existing Maches so it will not be possible to do an OTA upgrade but we will support SYNC" and then they will work the timeline for no longer supporting sync by how long the longest Options plan is?

and some people here say they will upgrade the existing cars to the new andriod? have they upgraded any existing cars to Sync 4 or only put it on new cars? all those people driving around in 2019 cars are getting sync 4? have sync 2 cars been given sync 3?

once they have your money they don't give a....

you drive your car from the dealer and then they aren't going to expend loads of cash updating your software to new versions when they can sell you a new car in 4 years!

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

No matter your outlook regarding AA and the mach-e, this isn’t good news for the two pre AA model years.

 

[jhalkias]

Another thought I had was that this once again is not good communication by Ford. The business team makes an announcement without thinking through all the implications and questions from customers, and the communications team is left holding the bag not knowing what to say.

This is how business always used to be, and 15-20 years ago it just was accepted. Not today.

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