Anyone know if the $250 EV penalty made it into the final version of the BB bill?

sockmeister

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Fares are rarely fair because the definition of “fair” is a sliding scale based on who is defining the word.

What is the most fair?
Flat fee for everyone
Sliding scale based on usage
Sliding scale based on income

You will get VERY different answers based on who you ask. And they’re all debatable.
The current tax was essentially based on both mileage and efficiency. (it's baked into gas tax). So essentially to keep the status quo of "fair", the EV one should similarly be based on miles driven. It's the only way to logically keep it "fair".
A flat fee punishes those who don't drive enough, which makes no sense.
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dbsb3233

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Really? It wouldn't be fair for people to pay their fair share?
I mean, to pay their fair fare? What an imbecile this representative is.
Fair share is always, well, unfair in the big picture because there's tons of government spending in the mix using taxpayer money that isn't fair share (welfare, Medicaid, schools, etc where the user isn't paying anywhere near their cost but non-users are paying way more). Roads are more universally used by more of the population (100%, really, even if you don't do the driving) than those other things, so one could make an argument roads are a better fit for just dropping user-based funding and using the general fund altogether.

Where his argument fails is not recognizing that gas taxes already hit high-miles drivers more. (Or maybe he does but the full context of the comments wasn't reported, which is quite common.)
 

Mach1E

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The current tax was essentially based on both mileage and efficiency. (it's baked into gas tax). So essentially to keep the status quo of "fair", the EV one should similarly be based on miles driven. It's the only way to logically keep it "fair".
A flat fee punishes those who don't drive enough, which makes no sense.
Yes, usage is how they decided on the gas tax.

But it’s still only one of the 3 definitions of “fair.”

As was pointed out earlier, is it fair that Wyoming gets way more money than the residents put out due to long roads and low population density?

If they made the tax based on usage and the proceeds based on the same…… it might be “fair,” but it would also be impossible to fund roads in low population density areas.

When it comes to taxes and government spending……. “Fair” not only doesn’t work logistically, it’s rarely the goal and defined very differently.
 

Kamuelaflyer

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Have a citation somewhere where "Red" States don't collect the Federal gasoline tax at the pump?
No state collects the federal gas tax, at the pump or otherwise. Federal excise taxes on gas are paid by wholesalers and distributors directly to the IRS.
 

dbsb3233

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As was pointed out earlier, is it fair that Wyoming gets way more money than the residents put out due to long roads and low population density?
Wyoming is a good example of their 3 interstates (I-25, I-80, and a small section of I-90 in the corner) being far more national than local usage (unlike most states). I don't know the number, but relative to most states, it's clearly a high% driving thru Wyoming (out-of-staters) rather than within it (locals). Especially the longest one (I-80). It's trucker row. We do the same with multiple trips each year from our home in Northern CO to/from Reno using I-80.

Alaska would be the opposite, for obvious reasons. :cool:
 


dbsb3233

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I pay the tax at the pump in the State the pump is located. I pay the retailer, I do not the distributor or wholesaler.

The State knows which of its citizens drive EV, they can easily collect the Fed EV road tax.
The wholesaler/distributor is the one that remits gas taxes in bulk for the fuel that passes through them. That way it's fewer transactions rather than millions of tiny transactions like regular sales tax (cheaper and easier to administer in bulk). The distributor calculates it for state rate and remits that tax to the states, then calculates it for the federal rate and remits that tax amount to the feds. States don't collect any federal gas tax.

Distributors then add those taxes into the cost of the fuel they sell to retailers (gas stations), who in turn pass that cost onto consumers.

Ford Mustang Mach-E Anyone know if the $250 EV penalty made it into the final version of the BB bill? Firefox_Screenshot_2025-07-10T03-15-59.456Z
 

Kamuelaflyer

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I pay the tax at the pump in the State the pump is located. I pay the retailer, I do not the distributor or wholesaler.

The State knows which of its citizens drive EV, they can easily collect the Fed EV road tax.
Wrong. This is basic economics. The distributors and wholesalers pay the excise tax. They pay it directly to the IRS. The IRS takes an extremely dim view of tax evasion. The distributor will increase the amount they charge their customers by the amount of the Federal excise tax on gasoline so that the per gallon excise tax is a net wash to them. Your 18¢ per gallon attributed to the excise tax goes into the retailer's pocket. Not 1 penny of that particular 18¢ goes to the IRS. Why? Because they paid 18¢ per gallon more to their distributor. The distributor owes that 18¢ to the IRS. This whole scenario is repeated for any state excise taxes on a gallon of gas. The only time the state is directly involved at the retail level is in the sales tax or G.E.T. in the states that tax gas sales. Then the retailer is writing a check to their state tax authority quarterly. Sales taxes on gas are the only gas tax you're directly charged for.

As for the state collecting a Federal EV tax, who pays for the program for collecting that data? Who pays for the additional employees to administer that program at the state level? Who pays the employees to investigate and certify every exemption to the Federal tax, such as for EFR vehicles, state, county, and local vehicles, and cars owned by the disabled and handicapped? These are called unfunded mandates, and they're quite a drag on state budgets. The reason the federal ev tax was dropped was because no matter how the tax was collected, either directly or indirectly, it was going to cost more than the collected fee. That was from a Republican administration that hates EVs and wanted this tax to discourage their adoption. Money talks and buys votes.
 

Kamuelaflyer

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I care where I pay the Fed gas tax. I don't care how the Feds actually get the cash, you keep getting mired down in the process. If I buy a screwdriver at Lowes, Lowes collects the tax from me and pays the tax to the State for me, why do I care exactly how that happens? I don't.

That is my point, there is little extra cost to administer the program to collect the Fed tax at the State level because the State already has a program in place to collect its State EV road tax via its DMV registration database. It's no different than the cost the State has to incur to administer its collection of its State gasoline tax. Some portion of the tax has a cost element in it to administrate collection of the tax.
Excise taxes are not sales taxes. The excise tax is already paid whether or not you buy gas. You buy something at Lowe’s, you are paying a sales tax. Excise taxes are not collected that way.

And yes, there are extensive costs associated with states collecting federal taxes. Get your head out of the sand.
 
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dbsb3233

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That is my point, there is little extra cost to administer the program to collect the Fed tax at the State level because the State already has a program in place to collect its State EV road tax via its DMV registration database.
Except for the states that don't collect and administer an EV registration fee at all. Or use different criteria.

That's what state rule is about - choosing to self-govern the way their residents want, which is often different than other states (including taxes/fees). It's not universal to all states, nor uniform, by design.

You can't apply federal taxes/fees without uniformity across the country. That's a lawsuit just waiting to happen. Which is why the feds have to administer any of their own taxation (well, one of the reasons).
 

Wayne-001

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How do you figure 3x?

I figure roughly $200/yr for state+federal gas taxes in TX for the average ICE vehicle. Avg MPG is ~26 in the US, 13,500 avg miles driven. That's 519 gallons/yr x $0.384 (federal + TX state gas taxes) = $199.

Of course, those are averages, which is what they're stuck with when using an annual registration fee. Some people drive more miles and come out ahead, some less and behind. Same for avg MPG.
Oh, I thought the TX tax was lower, so maybe I don't feel that bad even though I have almost half that mileage per year. I also pay tax on the electricity used to charge the MME, so double-taxation?
Thanks for the corrected tax rates.
 

dbsb3233

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Oh, I thought the TX tax was lower, so maybe I don't feel that bad even though I have almost half that mileage per year. I also pay tax on the electricity used to charge the MME, so double-taxation?
Thanks for the corrected tax rates.
The tax you pay on electricity usage is a different jurisdiction (and doesn't go toward roads), so it's really layered taxation that's funding different things. Similar to how sales tax often is layered by multiple jurisdictions for the same purchase (state + city + county + special district), or the same income is often taxed by the feds + the state.

TX gas tax is $0.20/gal, which is near the lower end (44th). Federal gas tax is another $0.184/gal.

https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/state-gas-tax-rates-2024/
 

dbsb3233

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I am suggesting there is already legal precedence for States to collect a Federal tax because the States collect the Federal Gas tax at the pump when the gasoline is sold to the consumer.
This is incorrect. States do not collect the federal gas tax, anywhere in the process. The IRS collects it directly from gasoline distributors.

When Joe's Petroleum sells & delivers gasoline to Costco gas stations, Joe's cuts a check directly to the IRS for $0.184 per gallon. They also cut a separate check to the state for any state gas tax.

It's the distributor that's getting taxed. Think of it as a business tax, not a sales tax. Of course, anything that raises the cost to the distributor (upstream) likely raises their prices when they sell it downstream to retailers (who then sell it to consumers), just like any business cost.
 

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I care where I pay the Fed gas tax. I don't care how the Feds actually get the cash, you keep getting mired down in the process. If I buy a screwdriver at Lowes, Lowes collects the tax from me and pays the tax to the State for me, why do I care exactly how that happens? I don't.

That is my point, there is little extra cost to administer the program to collect the Fed tax at the State level because the State already has a program in place to collect its State EV road tax via its DMV registration database. It's no different than the cost the State has to incur to administer its collection of its State gasoline tax. Some portion of the tax has a cost element in it to administrate collection of the tax.
Little extra cost? You clearly have no idea of the scope of what it takes for a state just to administrate and collect sales tax. Or what it takes for a business to pay their quarterly sales tax.
 

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You are suggesting the Federal Government is just not going to collect Federal EV road use taxes because it's just too hard? Yeah, that's not going to happen.
That's exactly what the Senate said:

"The contentious $250 annual registration fee for electric vehicles—and $100 for hybrids—has been stripped from Senate Republicans’ budget proposal, released Monday by the Senate Finance Committee.

The House-passed version of the bill had included the annual tax, with GOP lawmakers arguing that EV and hybrid owners should help fund the Highway Trust Fund, which pays for road repairs.

But as Politico first reported, the Senate version drops the fee due to “logistical and procedural issues.” Republican Sen. Bernie Moreno said the idea was too burdensome to implement."


https://insideevs.com/news/763016/senate-kills-the-250-dollar-ev-fee/
 

Mach1E

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That's exactly what the Senate said:

"The contentious $250 annual registration fee for electric vehicles—and $100 for hybrids—has been stripped from Senate Republicans’ budget proposal, released Monday by the Senate Finance Committee.

The House-passed version of the bill had included the annual tax, with GOP lawmakers arguing that EV and hybrid owners should help fund the Highway Trust Fund, which pays for road repairs.

But as Politico first reported, the Senate version drops the fee due to “logistical and procedural issues.” Republican Sen. Bernie Moreno said the idea was too burdensome to implement."


https://insideevs.com/news/763016/senate-kills-the-250-dollar-ev-fee/
Yes that’s the excuse they used.
I still say it would be super easy to make it a line item on your federal tax return.
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