2023 Mustang Mach-E speculation

[bp99]

Work on reducing the chip count. Some functions could be off- loaded to inactive cycle chip functions.

That's going to be hard to accomplish. They seem to be using off the shelf components from third party vendors for various features. Without more vertical integration and in-house development, they can't merge functions to shared chips. It should be a goal, but I don't see it happening short term.

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[mburtsvt]

That's going to be hard to accomplish. They seem to be using off the shelf components from third party vendors for various features. Without more vertical integration and in-house development, they can't merge functions to shared chips. It should be a goal, but I don't see it happening short term.

Exactly -I'm sure low level functions are being addressed. It would be a longer term project if Ford believes that long term chip shortages and price elasticity is in the future. It still amazes at how much idle time chips sit in non-fiction states. Could be as high as 70%.

 

[Mathington]

I expect the next redesign (24/25?) to be 800v... like everybody else. https://insideevs.com/news/580829/ev-industry-shifting-to-800-volt-2025/

I was listening to the Tesla earnings call yesterday and Elon and another employee were saying that 800v doesn't make a huge difference unless it's for large vehicles like Semi or Cybertruck. For vehicles like the Model 3 and Y, the cost savings was $100 and there wasn't any noticeable impact on the vehicle performance or charging. That being said, it's probably because Tesla has their own charging network and can go exceed the spec for CCS European cars as they manage their own charging infrastructure. For their own Tesla connector, they can change the spec to whatever they want and make adjustments to the hardware.

We are seeing 400v being a limiting factor for most non-Tesla EVs when it comes to charging as the most currently deployed infrastructure doesn't support 500A thought CCS, and most "350kW" stations are only pushing 350A. This leads to a max charging rate of 200kW unless you do something like GM does with the Hummer EV to charge at 350kW (also needs 500A charger output)

 

[Blue highway]

I was listening to the Tesla earnings call yesterday and Elon and another employee were saying that 800v doesn't make a huge difference unless it's for large vehicles like Semi or Cybertruck. For vehicles like the Model 3 and Y, the cost savings was $100 and there wasn't any noticeable impact on the vehicle performance or charging. That being said, it's probably because Tesla has their own charging network and can go exceed the spec for CCS European cars as they manage their own charging infrastructure. For their own Tesla connector, they can change the spec to whatever they want and make adjustments to the hardware.

We are seeing 400v being a limiting factor for most non-Tesla EVs when it comes to charging as the most currently deployed infrastructure doesn't support 500A thought CCS, and most "350kW" stations are only pushing 350A. This leads to a max charging rate of 200kW unless you do something like GM does with the Hummer EV to charge at 350kW (also needs 500A charger output)

Hmm saying it doesn't make a difference on charging is "spin" to be kind. The buzz that Kia/Hyundai are getting for the 800v architecture and associated charge speeds speaks for it's self.

 

[ARK]

I was listening to the Tesla earnings call yesterday and Elon and another employee were saying that 800v doesn't make a huge difference unless it's for large vehicles like Semi or Cybertruck. For vehicles like the Model 3 and Y, the cost savings was $100 and there wasn't any noticeable impact on the vehicle performance or charging. That being said, it's probably because Tesla has their own charging network and can go exceed the spec for CCS European cars as they manage their own charging infrastructure. For their own Tesla connector, they can change the spec to whatever they want and make adjustments to the hardware.

We are seeing 400v being a limiting factor for most non-Tesla EVs when it comes to charging as the most currently deployed infrastructure doesn't support 500A thought CCS, and most "350kW" stations are only pushing 350A. This leads to a max charging rate of 200kW unless you do something like GM does with the Hummer EV to charge at 350kW (also needs 500A charger output)

They’re just saying that to put a positive spin on what they are doing - it is a company earnings call after all. It seems to me until EV fast charging matches the gas station experience in terms of speed, ease, and convenience, manufacturers will be looking at ways to improve charging.

 

[Mathington]

They’re just saying that to put a positive spin on what they are doing - it is a company earnings call after all. It seems to me until EV fast charging matches the gas station experience in terms of speed, ease, and convenience, manufacturers will be looking at ways to improve charging.

I don't necessarily think that it's a positive spin, as we already see Tesla cars charging faster than many 800v cars. It's not just the 400v vs 800v argument, it's the design of the vehicle to properly manage thermals for the components.

We already see that 800v cars like the Ioniq 5 do horribly in hot or cold climates. They can charge slower than 400v cars in the same conditions until the battery temperature gets to the ideal point. There are great examples of 800v cars like the Tycan that charge like a beast because they can manage the thermals appropriately.

I do believe that 800v is the future, but there is still a lot that can be done with a 400v car to make it better and switching to 800v doesn't instantly improve a car if there are other existing technical issues. 800v does help address some limitations in charging infrastructure total kW output when limited by amperage.

 

[ARK]

I don't necessarily think that it's a positive spin, as we already see Tesla cars charging faster than many 800v cars. It's not just the 400v vs 800v argument, it's the design of the vehicle to properly manage thermals for the components.

We already see that 800v cars like the Ioniq 5 do horribly in hot or cold climates. They can charge slower than 400v cars in the same conditions until the battery temperature gets to the ideal point. There are great examples of 800v cars like the Tycan that charge like a beast because they can manage the thermals appropriately.

I do believe that 800v is the future, but there is still a lot that can be done with a 400v car to make it better and switching to 800v doesn't instantly improve a car if there are other existing technical issues. 800v does help address some limitations in charging infrastructure total kW output when limited by amperage.

I agree that they are ahead of most, what I meant was more I don't think even Tesla is at a place where they can stop investing in trying to figure out how to make charging faster.

I think it's very likely that 800v is on their timeline and they are looking into rolling it out at some point, maybe not necessarily soon as you say, but my point is more on messaging - they are not going to say on the earnings call 'yeah, we think in a few years charging will be a lot better than it is, will take only 5 min on a Tesla to go from 10% to 80%, but we're not there yet so it is what it is for anyone ordering a new Tesla today'.

It's like the heat pump thing - (before they rolled it out) Tesla doesn't need it, our battery tech is so good, it wouldn't make much of a difference; (after they rolled it out) EVs without heat pumps are trash.

You can bet there will be similar messaging once Tesla decides to launch 800v architecture.

 

[Mathington]

I agree that they are ahead of most, what I meant was more I don't think even Tesla is at a place where they can stop investing in trying to figure out how to make charging faster.

I think it's very likely that 800v is on their timeline and they are looking into rolling it out at some point, maybe not necessarily soon as you say, but my point is more on messaging - they are not going to say on the earnings call 'yeah, we think in a few years charging will be a lot better than it is, will take only 5 min on a Tesla to go from 10% to 80%, but we're not there yet so it is what it is for anyone ordering a new Tesla today'.

It's like the heat pump thing - (before they rolled it out) Tesla doesn't need it, our battery tech is so good, it wouldn't make much of a difference; (after they rolled it out) EVs without heat pumps are trash.

You can bet there will be similar messaging once Tesla decides to launch 800v architecture.

Yea, that would make total sense. They are very much like Apple in the sense that when they do something, they talk about how they are doing this and why they are the best, even if they aren't the first to market with the feature.

 

[Bblattz]

I don't necessarily think that it's a positive spin, as we already see Tesla cars charging faster than many 800v cars. It's not just the 400v vs 800v argument, it's the design of the vehicle to properly manage thermals for the components.

This is because Teslas can accept >500amps. Bjorn just posted a video today on MY LR and it was pulling over 600amps for a few minutes and then more than 500 for a period of time. Nominal voltage was under 390v similar to Mache

CCS1 is limited to 500amps by standard so in order to match Tesla charging times - not to mention Ev6 etc -Mach e would need to hold a flat curve like big etron or up the voltage.

 

[Mathington]

This is because Teslas can accept >500amps. Bjorn just posted a video today on MY LR and it was pulling over 600amps for a few minutes and then more than 500 for a period of time. Nominal voltage was under 390v similar to Mache

CCS1 is limited to 500amps by standard so in order to match Tesla charging times - not to mention Ev6 etc -Mach e would need to hold a flat curve like big etron or up the voltage.

It would be amazing if the Mach-E could hold the extended 140kW-150kW charging curve like the big e-tron. I'm curious to know what the differences are between the two architectures as I believe the battery size of the big e-tron is similar to the extended range Mach-E.

 

[SigSauer]

If Ford really plans on more than tripling Mach-e production for 2023, as suggested in articles recently, I’d not expect any feature returns for that model year. In fact, if there is such a production expansion, I think there’ll be additional feature eliminations happening. Personally, I do not believe we’ll see any easing in chip supplies until 2024 or beyond.

New for 2023, I hope mine has been delivered by then.

 

[russell]

I'm also wondering if there are "non-chip" related changes they might make to improve?....e.g. longer rear wiper, better rear cargo cover, 12V batter access in frunk, option to upgrade suspension on the all models, new paint colors, additional GT wheel options, etc........I guess some of these may have supply issues also.

Speaking of rear wiper, it would look really well done if they moved it to be located just below the rear spoiler.

 

[Bblattz]

It would be amazing if the Mach-E could hold the extended 140kW-150kW charging curve like the big e-tron. I'm curious to know what the differences are between the two architectures as I believe the battery size of the big e-tron is similar to the extended range Mach-E.

I’d be happy with 500amp peak and a standard curve as opposed to the current 450amp peak with a time based curve. Seems like ford went conservative on everything but the 10-80% time is not competitive anymore. Bjorn had a nice comparison at the end and mache was last at 38 min. Having road-tripped a lot in EVs, getting that time sub 30 is a big deal when you do 10 stops in a day.

i can only imagine how painful road-tripping a Lightning will be given it looks like it’ll have similar speeds as Mach e

 

[Mathington]

I’d be happy with 500amp peak and a standard curve as opposed to the current 450amp peak with a time based curve. Seems like ford went conservative on everything but the 10-80% time is not competitive anymore. Bjorn had a nice comparison at the end and mache was last at 38 min. Having road-tripped a lot in EVs, getting that time sub 30 is a big deal when you do 10 stops in a day.

i can only imagine how painful road-tripping a Lightning will be given it looks like it’ll have similar speeds as Mach e

500amp peak would be awesome on the Mach-E assuming the cooling system can manage the heat.

The 150kW peak charging is going to be painful in the Lightning unless they can have a nice flat charging curve. I'd be surprised if they didn't build the lightning with 200kW charging in mind and will unlock it once they see more data on the battery lifecycle and charging usage.

 

[vortix]

I would think Ford could streamline their manufacturing process by offering a smaller number of trim levels and options/packages, particularly if they can reduce complexity due to specific part shortages.

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