Cold weather under performing

[SonicBlue]

95% of vehicles sold in Norway are EV so it's definitely possible to use EVs in colder climates.

Norway is a little smaller than Canada. I kinda doubt the use cases are the same.

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[SonicBlue]

The lesson here is - even the large battery is under designed for winter weather. This is an area where further research and investment can really pay off for EV’s.

Right. We’re all waiting for the next big thing. For now, it probably isn’t a great idea to buy an EV if you plan to be doing winter trips from Montreal to Ottawa.

 

[NorthlandPhil]

Right. We’re all waiting for the next big thing. For now, it probably isn’t a great idea to buy an EV if you plan to be doing winter trips from Montreal to Ottawa.

I dare to differ. I do winter trips from Duluth to Fargo. Similar climate as it's actually even further north. But I admit, I do like adventure.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

I do not know why fast charging takes longer. Both the significant drop in range and the increase in time to fast charge surprised me.

The battery was probably well below its ideal charging temperature so some of the fast charge power was being spent to warm the battery to a reasonable temperature for charging. It’s a big battery with a lot of mass and takes time to warm up. If you have the range, putting the fast charger into the vehicle’s navigation will help the vehicle warm up the battery on your way to the charger (at the expense of range since it’ll be using the battery’s stored energy to warm itself up). It’ll start when you are about 30 km from the charger.

 

[ipca204]

This is not news. Well known fact that EVs lose a lot of range and charge slower in the cold, especially below freezing.

Wait!?? What?? Since when? This is news to me!. I have been driving evs since the 2013 Nissan Leaf. Are you telling me that some people have reduced range in COLD weather? Why is there not a thread on this? And slower charging temps too? Holy crap! This info needs to get out to the public! Perhaps someone could call CNBC and they could get this info out to the masses!

 

[TheRock]

115km/h for one is killing your range. Drive 100-105 and you'll see a difference. Plugging the car in all the time even on 110v makes a difference to.

Drive MTL to Quebec from 100%. Arrived in Qc at 23%. It was -15c and drove 105km/h.

Drove back from QC to MTL, car was plugged in on 110v the last 36 hours before leaving. Left at 99%. Drove 105km/h with high front winds. Had to charge in Belœil for 10mins. Our arrival range was 8%. Charged to 20%. Enough to get home. The car was iced from the ice storm.

 

[Mach-Lee]

If it’s -20°C outside, you really need to be plugging in to a Level 2 charger every single night to keep the battery warm. And if you’re going to take a trip the next day, you should charge to 100% and set a departure time to further warm the battery and enhance range. If you didn’t know, the car will not heat the battery while it’s unplugged and it will drop to ambient temperature. Leaving the car plugged in will ensure the battery stays above 0°C during charging hours. Setting a departure time will warm it up to about 12-15°C for more range.

If you aren’t able to plug in every night, or are relying on public charging, then you’re going to be in for a tough winter. When the battery sits outside, it gets quite cold, and that’s going to have a huge impact on the available energy and range. Cold batteries have very low capacity and output.

The lesson here is - even the large battery is under designed for winter weather. This is an area where further research and investment can really pay off for EV’s.

I would disagree, the battery is big and holds enough energy once it’s warmed up. The problem is getting the battery warm.

So in summary, make sure you plug the car in nightly and I think you’ll see a decent range improvement. More if you use departure times. DC charging will also be faster if the battery is already warmed up. But it’s normal to see a 40-50% loss of range in winter, plan accordingly.

 

[bvelderman]

If it’s -20°C outside, you really need to be plugging in to a Level 2 charger every single night to keep the battery warm. And if you’re going to take a trip the next day, you should charge to 100% and set a departure time to further warm the battery and enhance range. If you didn’t know, the car will not heat the battery while it’s unplugged and it will drop to ambient temperature. Leaving the car plugged in will ensure the battery stays above 0°C during charging hours. Setting a departure time will warm it up to about 12-15°C for more range.

If you aren’t able to plug in every night, or are relying on public charging, then you’re going to be in for a tough winter. When the battery sits outside, it gets quite cold, and that’s going to have a huge impact on the available energy and range. Cold batteries have very low capacity and output.



I would disagree, the battery is big and holds enough energy once it’s warmed up. The problem is getting the battery warm.

So in summary, make sure you plug the car in nightly and I think you’ll see a decent range improvement. More if you use departure times. DC charging will also be faster if the battery is already warmed up. But it’s normal to see a 40-50% loss of range in winter, plan accordingly.

Thanks. Yes it clearly takes planning and a different driving style for winter.

 

[RickMachE]

Last night my Mach-E pulled power from 3:41AM to 4AM, using 1.5kW to warm the battery (1.4 to the vehicle).

With my wife leaving this morning in 20 degree weather, since I got up early enough, I upped the charging limit from 90% to 100% roughly an hour before her departure. That raised the SOC to 94%, and that also warms the battery. I then remote started with about 10 minutes to go. That was pulling 3.7kW when I looked. That combined effort used 5.11kWh of electricity (from the house, 4.75 to the vehicle).

Seeing a 3.7 pull (3.44 to the car) for the remote start, which ran for 8 minutes (3.44 / 60 * 8 = 0.46kWh). 4.75 - 0.46= 4.24 to increase from 90 to 94% charge.

 

[sglewiswl]

If it’s -20°C outside, you really need to be plugging in to a Level 2 charger every single night to keep the battery warm. And if you’re going to take a trip the next day, you should charge to 100% and set a departure time to further warm the battery and enhance range. If you didn’t know, the car will not heat the battery while it’s unplugged and it will drop to ambient temperature. Leaving the car plugged in will ensure the battery stays above 0°C during charging hours. Setting a departure time will warm it up to about 12-15°C for more range.

If you aren’t able to plug in every night, or are relying on public charging, then you’re going to be in for a tough winter. When the battery sits outside, it gets quite cold, and that’s going to have a huge impact on the available energy and range. Cold batteries have very low capacity and output.



I would disagree, the battery is big and holds enough energy once it’s warmed up. The problem is getting the battery warm.

So in summary, make sure you plug the car in nightly and I think you’ll see a decent range improvement. More if you use departure times. DC charging will also be faster if the battery is already warmed up. But it’s normal to see a 40-50% loss of range in winter, plan accordingly.

Why not a level 1 charger? If I drive very little and my car is almost always over 70% wouldn't a level one keep it just as warm?

 

[B177y]

Why not a level 1 charger? If I drive very little and my car is almost always over 70% wouldn't a level one keep it just as warm?

1.2 kW (1200 watts) is not enough to heat the battery and/or cabin efficiently, it barely keeps up with heat loss and electric resistance losses. If you're using level 1 in really cold weather, it barely adds energy to the battery, and sometimes you loose battery charge because it takes a mix of home power and battery power to keep the battery warm. I think @Mach-Lee has a post with the explanation and data of this.

 

[SonicBlue]

I dare to differ. I do winter trips from Duluth to Fargo. Similar climate as it's actually even further north. But I admit, I do like adventure.

Yeah. Adventure. I just drove from Wichita to Overland Park for a graduation party and arrived at 1% SOC. Plugged in at a L2. My parents are picking me up from the charger to attend the party. Afterwards, I’ll probably be at 20% but enough to find a DCFC to charge up enough to get back on the road. And then I’ll have to hit another DCFC just to make it all the way home. All this for 180 miles each way. I’ll spend at least 45 minutes at DCFC stations, not including the L2. Adventure is sooooo fun.

And it’s 33 degrees out, btw, with very little wind.

 

[sglewiswl]

1.2 kW (1200 watts) is not enough to heat the battery and/or cabin efficiently, it barely keeps up with heat loss and electric resistance losses. If you're using level 1 in really cold weather, it barely adds energy to the battery, and sometimes you loose battery charge because it takes a mix of home power and battery power to keep the battery warm. I think @Mach-Lee has a post with the explanation and data of this.

I don't' heat the cabin and the battery charges albeit slowly. I work from home and drive maybe 50 miles a week. I just took the longest trip so far in the Mach-E, 66 miles round trip. On my 66 mile trip is was snowing and 20 degrees. I had the temp at 74 and the passenger seat heater on, wipers running, on the freeway. I ran another trip when I got back and the car was at 52% charge. Level 1 is the most convenient way for me to charge and I'm not sure I've seen a compelling reason or in my own case any downside. I'm not convinced I need to plug it in every night when it is cold, but if I do it would be level 1.

 

[TheRock]

1.2 kW (1200 watts) is not enough to heat the battery and/or cabin efficiently, it barely keeps up with heat loss and electric resistance losses. If you're using level 1 in really cold weather, it barely adds energy to the battery, and sometimes you loose battery charge because it takes a mix of home power and battery power to keep the battery warm. I think @Mach-Lee has a post with the explanation and data of this.

I beg to differ. Charge on LVL 1 from 80 to 99% in -15c and lower temperature. So yes you can charge without a problem. I've always used LVL 1 when no LVL 2 can be used. Is it efficient mostly not but at least it kept the battery somewhat warm and charging.

 

[sglewiswl]

I beg to differ. Charge on LVL 1 from 80 to 99% in -15c and lower temperature. So yes you can charge without a problem. I've always used LVL 1 when no LVL 2 can be used. Is it efficient mostly not but at least it kept the battery somewhat warm and charging.

For people that drive a lot and have installed a level 2 so they can roll into the garage and plug in sure. I park in a driveway and if I charge the cord is run under the door out to my car.
If someone can convince me there is a long term reason to plug in every night, but if it's just battery efficiency, that's unreasonable. Plenty of us live in cold states without charging most of the places we work. If I drove to a job it would sit for 8 hours in 14 degree weather in a parking lot. How is that different than leaving it in my driveway over night?

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