Electrical Grid Argument Against EVs rebuttal

[ARK]

I have several 'friends' arguing that BEVs are going to bring the electrical grid system down and cause brown/black outs. They use quotes from local utilities that appear to confirm the extra load could cause some issues. In researching this subject I have developed a counterargument if you are interested and have similar 'friends'. The basic assumption is that an BEV adds to the overall electrical consumption and the equivalent usage of gasoline in the ICE unit being replaced is ignored. In most cases the BEV owner is ceasing to operate an ICE unit by replacing with the BEV. The fuel required for the ICE unit requires energy for the conversion to gasoline from the crude state. That conversion process requires 5-6 KWh per gallon. My MME gets about 4 mile per KWh. Simple math would suggest the energy for converting crude to gasoline would get me about 20-24 miles of range. I believe the average ICE vehicle gets about the same mileage per gallon. If the grid does not have to support gasoline manufacturing but uses that for BEVS then the electrical grid is not negatively impacted by charging BEVs as needed. Thoughts?

I think that argument might work in somewhere like Texas where there is substantial refining capacity, but maybe not so much in places where fuel is ‘imported’ from other parts of the country.

But I agree with others that the power companies are only too happy to step up and massively increase the amount of the product they sell because of the growing number of EVs.

I think the biggest risk though is there is now an increasing will to shut down dirty/dangerous electricity generation, even natural gas and nuclear. But renewables aren’t quite there yet to pick up all the slack, and with the increasing EV demand, this could become an issue in some places.

But this isn’t so much a technical problem as it is a political one, if people simply don’t want any non-green electricity generation sources in operation and insist on a too aggressive of a timetable.

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[EELinneman]

I have solar also but wanted to see what others thought on this subject of grid overload.

My wife and I are in the process of solar. The panels are installed, but we are waiting on the shitty utility to review and install the net meter. My utility - IREA - is rabidly anti-solar because they are living with decades of hubris and lack of investment.

I just built a 12.4 KW generating facility with my own money and they have not invested a dime. They should be falling all over themselves at the free capacity they are getting. As this wave of solar continues with homeowners making the investment for them, their economics will improve.

 

[Blackbluff]

My wife and I are in the process of solar. The panels are installed, but we are waiting on the shitty utility to review and install the net meter. My utility - IREA - is rabidly anti-solar because they are living with decades of hubris and lack of investment.

I just built a 12.4 KW generating facility with my own money and they have not invested a dime. They should be falling all over themselves at the free capacity they are getting. As this wave of solar continues with homeowners making the investment for them, their economics will improve.

Your system sounds about like ours in generating capacity. Ours are fixed on the roof so the angle of the sun really effects peak generating capacity. We have peaked at 8.9KWh. We do have a 13.4 KW battery to store access generation during off peak use time. This system really impacts the demand made by the BEV when charging.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

The kind of argument like the ones that suggest that BEVs will crash the grid are based on faulty assumptions that we'll replace all the ICEs with BEVs in a super short time and that none of the utilities have thought at all about how to best manage BEV charging.

In fact, as others have stated, many utilities are looking at BEVs as a net positive for the grid because it would allow them to flatten the duck curve in ways that most other approaches don't.

Of course, if nobody thought about it, it would become a problem. But people are being paid to think about this and plan for it.

There are hundreds of scientific research papers out there that discuss the best algorithms for supporting BEV charging with and without grid upgrades; how to manage incentives (kWh costs based on charging times); how to upgrade the grids; how to distribute upgrades to the grid; how to create incentives that link BEVs and solar; etc.; etc.; etc.

 

[Kabish]

Also have to keep in mind that a lot of states make it beneficial to charge between say midnight at six in the morning. Usage is low during that time and thus way less stress on the system.

It’s only $0.09 per kWh for me, I won’t charge outside of those super off peak.

 

[Scooby24]

My wife and I are in the process of solar. The panels are installed, but we are waiting on the shitty utility to review and install the net meter. My utility - IREA - is rabidly anti-solar because they are living with decades of hubris and lack of investment.

I just built a 12.4 KW generating facility with my own money and they have not invested a dime. They should be falling all over themselves at the free capacity they are getting. As this wave of solar continues with homeowners making the investment for them, their economics will improve.

GREAT work. This is how we make a difference. FWIW I had to contact the state to get my energy company to swap out my meter as they dragged their feet 17 days and they are contractually obligated with the state to provide within 15 days of inspection approval.

My power bill last month was 336. This month my unbilled usage with a week to go is 32 dollars. 13.86kw system. Produced 68kwh on the first day it was turned on....almost enough to fill a full charge with just one day's worth of generation.

 

[Garbone]

If I can keep my usage below 1000kw a month my rate stays at about 8 cents. Will be looking at solar withing the year. Can not keep usage down that low in the summer here in Florida. Winter is easy.

 

[ChuckA]

My wife and I are in the process of solar. The panels are installed, but we are waiting on the shitty utility to review and install the net meter. My utility - IREA - is rabidly anti-solar because they are living with decades of hubris and lack of investment.

I just built a 12.4 KW generating facility with my own money and they have not invested a dime. They should be falling all over themselves at the free capacity they are getting. As this wave of solar continues with homeowners making the investment for them, their economics will improve.

My solar was installed in April 2021 but it took until May to get inspection and June to get the net meter installed. I’m in CT. it was delayed because I of pandemic backlog.

 

[delacruz.c5d]

In response to the OP:

I'm not so sure that 2.5% market share of BEV in percentage of ALL VEHICLES sold in 2021 H1 is really going to bring down the electrical grid. Unless all of those BEVs are sold in one concentrated area with a poorly maintained and managed electrical grid. Highly unlikely.

There is "some" (air quotes) merit to this argument, but that's only in a vacuum of other factors such as:
1) Point solar production (as stated by some responses)
2) More efficient usage of electrify in commercial settings by various technologies (LED, Energy Saver Tech like Prox sensors, computer improvements, etc)
3) Better energy savings tech in the home

Now, there are some electrical grid companies that are surely not maintaining their infrastructure, and will no doubt have their issues, even though they KNOW that this BEV wave will be coming in roughly 10-15 years. However, if they were smart (as stated in a bunch of other replies), I'm sure they are SALAVATING/FROTHING at the mouth to take away dollars from the petroleum producers.

I guess that's why Shell is making a 14-50 L2 charger. Weird.

As far as proof that there is some "mis-management" of the electrical grid look no further than home solar. Before, if you had solar in the home, you could spin your meter back if you made more electrons that you used. Now, because the grid can't manage that creation load, they are making home solar store and dissipate those electrons instead of back feeding the grid.

In all honesty though, that last paragraph wasn't totally fair. Electrical generation is a tough business, and you need to create almost exactly what is being "requested", so that can be tough with a bunch of small solar installs hooked up to your grid. You would've thought someone might have thought about that ahead of time.

 

[TheVirtualTim]

Have you had the DTE smart charge actually work? I've been plugged in during charge events and it didn't override my schedule to start charging

Two things... there's (1) the times when the car is allowed to charge and (2) the max charge you allow when charging.

I do see the schedule update ... but I work from home so sometimes the car doesn't get used for a few days and is sitting at my 80% charge limit. When that happens the car wont charge even though allowed ... because it already at the max charge that I set.

I suspect if I had been driving and the car was waiting to charge (off-peak starts for me at 11pm on weekdays) then it would have started charging.

I asked DTE what happens with billing ... because the normal home rate here is 15¢/kWh for the first 17 kWh's used in a day and then 17¢ for any additional power (so... about 16¢ if you want to average it). But on the EV rate plan it's 11¢ to charge at off-peak but 24¢ to charge during on-peak hours.

They responded that if I had allowed the car to charge during a CHARGE event (when they are getting more power from renewables and the demand is low and they need to dump excess power) ... they would charge me whatever the rate is for that time of day. So I would have been charged 24¢. That's something they need to fix if they want EV owners to absorb excess power. Now that I know this ... every time I see a CHARGE event during peak hours I respond with the OPTOUT reply so it wont charge my car when rates are high.

 

[Gimme_my_MME]

Two things... there's (1) the times when the car is allowed to charge and (2) the max charge you allow when charging.

I do see the schedule update ... but I work from home so sometimes the car doesn't get used for a few days and is sitting at my 80% charge limit. When that happens the car wont charge even though allowed ... because it already at the max charge that I set.

I suspect if I had been driving and the car was waiting to charge (off-peak starts for me at 11pm on weekdays) then it would have started charging.

I asked DTE what happens with billing ... because the normal home rate here is 15¢/kWh for the first 17 kWh's used in a day and then 17¢ for any additional power (so... about 16¢ if you want to average it). But on the EV rate plan it's 11¢ to charge at off-peak but 24¢ to charge during on-peak hours.

They responded that if I had allowed the car to charge during a CHARGE event (when they are getting more power from renewables and the demand is low and they need to dump excess power) ... they would charge me whatever the rate is for that time of day. So I would have been charged 24¢. That's something they need to fix if they want EV owners to absorb excess power. Now that I know this ... every time I see a CHARGE event during peak hours I respond with the OPTOUT reply so it wont charge my car when rates are high.

I understand the limitations you mention and am also working from home so haven't put many miles on my Mach-E yet. But multiple times I have had buffer to my charge limit (90%) and plugged in during a CHARGE event that was outside my schedule and no charging occurred. One of the times I got notified via Ford pass that my schedule had been updated and then after my schedule had been returned but still no charging happened

 

[Blackbluff]

My solar was installed in April 2021 but it took until May to get inspection and June to get the net meter installed. I’m in CT. it was delayed because I of pandemic backlog.

Similar utility response here in Tennessee. Solar installed early November, Utility inspection in late December, Watched 6-7 weeks pass without solar production. Local utility stated backlog of inspections but inspector indicated lack of scheduling urgency. Oh, well, we are now off grid about 90% of the time with the cloudy days creating most of the grid requirements we experience.

 

[Motomax]

One thing you didn’t consider is that refinery’s are energy producers and the local ones here self generate 50-100% of their energy usage using steam turbines. the grid is likely to see no change from your ICE vehicle especially since it’s still in service.

Brownouts are definitely a thing and usually cause by Everyone using their AC at once (PGE turned my AC off about 5 times this year). Time of use helps reduce peak consumption but if everyone is waiting to charge until the first hour of off-peak you’ll get the same problem. Theoretically speaking if everyone had EVs you would need to have multiple time blocks setup using smartchargers. Which could cause a whole other problem for last min trips or commuting hours. Solar panels only help in the day and battery storage is simply not cost effective. $14k for a 10kwhr system is a complete waste.

 

[timbop]

Theoretically speaking if everyone had EVs you would need to have multiple time blocks setup using smartchargers.

Yes and no. Certainly having opt-in smart chargers is a great solution for the utilities balancing the load to keep the curve flat, but those don't have to be off/on decisions. Logically the smart chargers could simply reduce the charging current instead of switching off altogether in blocks of time - given that some cars would need more overnight charge than others.

The point is that it is manageable if done correctly and intelligently. Unfortunately politicians who are inordinately influenced by the fossil fuel companies will be involved, so one can't rule out intentional sabotage.

 

[Blackbluff]

One thing you didn’t consider is that refinery’s are energy producers and the local ones here self generate 50-100% of their energy usage using steam turbines. the grid is likely to see no change from your ICE vehicle especially since it’s still in service.

Brownouts are definitely a thing and usually cause by Everyone using their AC at once (PGE turned my AC off about 5 times this year). Time of use helps reduce peak consumption but if everyone is waiting to charge until the first hour of off-peak you’ll get the same problem. Theoretically speaking if everyone had EVs you would need to have multiple time blocks setup using smartchargers. Which could cause a whole other problem for last min trips or commuting hours. Solar panels only help in the day and battery storage is simply not cost effective. $14k for a 10kwhr system is a complete waste.

Even if power is self produced they only produce what they can sell (generally). The point is if BEVs replace ICE vehicles then that energy for crude to refined will be reduced in a direct relationship.

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