For EVs to become “No-Brainers” over ICE.

[Mach1E]

All you really need for mass adoption is for EVs to perform similarly to ICE... time to charge with a sufficient number of convenient chargers, similar range, similar price. They don’t need to be superior.

For mass adoption? Yes.

For 100% conversion it’ll take much more than that.

There are some things that may never be possible with BEVs- For example- haul large loads, long distances, as fast as possible.

Or

Have the infrastructure in place to evacuate millions of people at once (Hurricane Irma). If we had that much infrastructure, those chargers would be dormant 95% of the time.

I look at BEVs the same way I look at my lawn tools-

Electric tools are fantastic for the small jobs, but significantly lacking when it comes to doing the heavy lifting.

Haven’t seen an all electric commercial lawn service……ever.

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[Auto Motive]

Not necessary. In real life it's hard to get out of a gas station in under 10 minutes. 15-20 is more normal when on road trips.


I don't have a 400/500 mile bladder. Besides, driving more than a few hours results in road-weariness and reduced attention. The issue isn't more range than ICE cars. The issue is having enough chargers to not worry about finding one. The infrastructure law is bringing $5B to the table to solve this issue.


No, we need better communication. So what if the cost on the sticker is a bit higher? The cost of ownership is the monthly payment + fuel + maintenance + insurance (a lot higher sticker cost is a problem though). There is already a comparable cost of ownership and dealers need to be pushing home the fact that most EVs already have a lower cost of ownership when compared to their ICE equivalents.

Personally, sweet spot is the following:

1. Range: 300 mile city & summer; 275 mile city & winter and highway & summer; 250 highway & winter
2. Charge speed: ~30 min DCFC 10-90% + no adverse impact with consistent DCFC
3. Cost: parity with ICE.

When cost improves, better battery tech. When battery tech improves, smaller battery, not higher range. Less weight equals more fun. My MME has same 0-60 than a C5 corvette I had 21 years ago, but nowhere near the fun. It’s just too heavy (and I am too, but we won’t talk about that).

I own a GTPE and run 3.0 kw highway and 3.5 kwh city. 280 to 290 recently with it being hot.
I got hammered by a member praising our new model y AWD long range getting 300 miles highway at 65. It fast charges 150 to 160 miles in 15 minutes and superchargers are everywhere. My wife gave me her GTPE and enjoys the Y a bit more. Only con no android. You hit the nail on the head that 300 miles highway is perfect. And eventually our mme can use the network. No anxieties on will the chargers work or connect. Future looks good.

 

[Gullwingdmc]

This shift is quite different though.

For one, these technologies have co-existed for over 100 years.

And despite the government forced intervention, it’s not a 100% shift (or at least it wouldn’t be unless forced).

Gas, diesel, hybrid and BEV are likely to co-exist for many years to come. And for good reason, there isn’t a “no brainer” among them.

I know they will coexist, and I know this is a significant shift. My argument is that people shouldn’t be as hyper focused on range and charge speeds.

For most people the range and charge speeds that are out there right now are completely fine. It’s their thinking about charging that needs to change more than the technology.

 

[Mach1E]

I own a GTPE and run 3.0 kw highway and 3.5 kwh city. 280 to 290 recently with it being hot.
I got hammered by a member praising our new model y AWD long range getting 300 miles highway at 65. It fast charges 150 to 160 miles in 15 minutes and superchargers are everywhere. My wife gave me her GTPE and enjoys the Y a bit more. Only con no android. You hit the nail on the head that 300 miles highway is perfect. And eventually our mme can use the network. No anxieties on will the chargers work or connect. Future looks good.

Try the above test.

 

[dmastro]

For mass adoption? Yes.

For 100% conversion it’ll take much more than that.

There are some things that may never be possible with BEVs- For example- haul large loads, long distances, as fast as possible.

Or

Have the infrastructure in place to evacuate millions of people at once (Hurricane Irma). If we had that much infrastructure, those chargers would be dormant 95% of the time.

I look at BEVs the same way I look at my lawn tools-

Electric tools are fantastic for the small jobs, but significantly lacking when it comes to doing the heavy lifting.

Haven’t seen an all electric commercial lawn service……ever.

For 100% they’ll need to be free, fly, and do the laundry. And then they’ll still never reach 100%.

 

[Mach1E]

I know they will coexist, and I know this is a significant shift. My argument is that people shouldn’t be as hyper focused on range and charge speeds.

For most people the range and charge speeds that are out there right now are completely fine. It’s their thinking about charging that needs to change more than the technology.

That’s very true.

Probably 90% of the time people ask about my car, I get this question:

“how much range do you get?”

Since October 2021, I’ve never DC charged, and I’ve never gone below 50%
charge.

So range and charging speed are irrelevant to me. But we also have my wife’s Aviator when it would matter. And we drive that one every time we have to go far.

 

[Auto Motive]

Try the above test.

Chasing me around to comment is still bullying. Get over me.

 

[DevSecOps]

Chasing me around to comment is still bullying. Get over me.

I gotta kinda agree with @Mach1E here bro ... you are quite vocal about your love for Tesla in most posts. I've checked to see if you're a bot twice now myself. If you need a quick recap, here's some of what you've posted in this month alone not including what's above. I don't think anyone's being a bully. It's just comical to see the same general posts in every thread, but please don't stop I get a chuckle every time I see one knowing that Mach1E is gonna have something else to say.

After driving my wifes new AWD model Y I am disappointed in getting the GTPE instead of a performance y. Her tesla beats me in a quarter miles and it only has 385hp. In addition she is able to get added power on a $2000 performance boost. Cost $53000. Minus $7500 tax credit.

It does have cross traffic alert and new positioning of camera views. OTA are weekly. I love thdd GTPE but something a little special in the Y. Wife loves it period and we are in our mid 70s. If you run at 65mph even with ac on you will get 300 miles like we do.

Never rush to buy a ev you may hate in a couple of weeks. We have GTPE which is wild in every box but cost 69500 minus 7500 credit in 2021. We bought a new model y with steep discounts for 53000 MSRP 72380.

We have a GTPE and a 2023 modelY. The Y fit and finish is excellent with no issues after waxing our new ev 3 times. Every gap and panel is simular to the excellent quality of our GTPE. Susp was upgraded and gives a balanced ride. Tech is very good and seats very comfortable. Front door glass double glazed. Storage is very good both frunk and secret area in rear. Prior years were poor and they hit a home run on the 2023. Being 75 and loving cars is a passion.
Many pros on both ev but the Y charging 150 miles in 15 minutes and 300 miles highway at 65 mph ac on at 78 deg.

Wow...my story is short and to the point. Tesla superchargers are 99.5% working and are everywhere with no range anxiety. We own a GTPE and had problems with charger around Oh, Pa. My wife gave me her gtpe3 and bought a 2023 Model Y.

It worked. We own a GTPE and in late Apr bought are 2023 model Y. Excellent choice price, tech, safety pack pkg, supercharging 150 miles in 15 minutes. So far 300 miles range at 65 mph highway. Only con no android,

We have a 2021 GTPE with mostly positive ownership in almost 2 years. Only con was susp and 12v battery faults fixed by dealer on dealer only updates. So far seems to have worked. In Apr we bought a model Y, great price and supercharges in 15 minutes 150 miles. Superchargers are everywhere and work 99.5 of the time. Traveling is anxiety free. Its AWD long range with 20 rims and get 300 miles highway at 65 mph. Very nice traveling ev. My wife liked it so much I got the GTPE. Love both.

We have a GTPE and love it but also have a new model Y AWD long range at 320 miles on 20 rims.
Nothing can beat tesla. Its charges 150 to 160 miles in 15 minutes and superchargers are everywhere. And they work 99.5% of the time. One commenter said I was giving a commercial on tesla on my positive feedback but its TRUE. Its a awesome ev and only con no android. So with your complaints listed test drive a a tesla and see what you think.

Agree and if they work at all. We have the GTPE and love it but traveling gives my wife so much anxiety to the next charger hoping it will work and hookup. We decided to get a new model Y AWD long range and glad we did. 300 miles highway at 65. No problem with charger availabilty and they work every time. 150 to 160 miles in 15 minutes. I now drive the GTPE and she loves her new Y. Still waiting for the 5 second power fix.

 

[voxel]

Price is the big one. EVs don't exist in a vacuum.

A $35K RAV4, $50K Palisade/Telluride/Pilot/GrandHighlander, $70K Tahoe can do a lot more than the equivalent EV at the same price point. Heck most are loaded with features compared to the barebones nature of EVs.

300+ mile range, 10 minute charging, and DC charging everywhere only helps justify the $10-15K extra an EV costs over the equivalent ICE car.

My Rivian R1S at $75K has less features than a loaded Grand Highlander or Telluride (that are $55K). Same space. Worse ride quality and less range too. How does one justify spending the extra $20K? (now would be $40K). The three big pluses are supercar acceleration, off-road ground clearance, and large battery pack for overlanding activities. Most families would not care.

 

[Teslaeata]

EVs need a slam dunk reason for ICE buyers to convert over. IMO 3 things need to happen for EVs to become no-brainers over ICE vehicles for mass adoption.

1. 0-90% SOC in under 10 min on public charging networks.

2. Much greater range than ICE vehicles…think 400/500+ miles on a full charge.

3. Lower price of entry.

Competition is a great thing, I could see this happening in 5 years (maybe).

what are your thoughts?

The slam dunk is Mustang Mach-e

It’s range is adequate and it works hard & performs well for 30,000 miles pa, I quite like the occasional pause in a working day esp when charger is at MaccyDees

 

[Deleted member 16048]

My opinion is that if those are the main issues people won't switch today, even if they are solved they will still be issues with them at that point as well.

Right now there are a lot of no brainer reasons to adopt and people come up with reasons not to.

The one I hear the most isn't about rang, charging time, or cost. It's been "They aren't clean like they claim because they still need electricitiy from coal!", "The grid isn't ready!" and reasons along those lines. Which for those of us who know, it's not the case at all.

I do agree that price can scare people away, but that's only if they don't see the value in what they are getting. EVs tend to have more tech that is standard where ICE vehicles would have them optional. So if you can show good value in an EV, price is easier to handle.

But at the end of the day, people don't like change, and EVs will require a change in habit. That alone will cause people to not want to adopt.

 

[voxel]

EVs tend to have more tech that is standard where ICE vehicles would have them optional.

Which isn't true at all.

Modern ICE cars in the $50K range have ventilated seats, HUD, 360 cameras, digital rear view mirror, 2nd row heated, etc etc. Heck my 23 Grand Cherokee has most of those except the HUD....

Mach-E Premium is super basic in comparison to modern SUVs in the same price range. I argue EVs are cheeeap and often budgety. My GC has real leather seats too as did my Telluride and they are/were $10K cheaper too.

 

[SpaceEVDriver]

It was a no-brainer, slam-dunk for us to sell our nearly-new ICE and buy the Mustang. On cost alone, we're nearing break-even. We'll reach break-even by the time our final payment is due in a little over 18 months.

But discounting cost, it's a better road trip vehicle than any other we've had. We road trip. A lot. More range is unnecessary for our use-case, which is 1,100 mile round trip road trips for work and family reasons.

Faster charging speed is unnecessary for our use-case. We stop and stretch our legs every 2 to 3 hours, whether we're driving an ICE or an EV.

I've watched gas stations and timed people's dwell times. People don't typically leave the gas station in less than 15 minutes. Especially families and older people, but even clearly road-tripping young people don't get out of the gas station all that quickly. And when it's a busy holiday weekend, gas stations along my route are absolutely awful to visit--the last one I was at was over a holiday weekend and the gas stations were full with super long lines, angry people, and just overall unpleasantness. I will be thrilled when I never have to visit another gas station.

 

[Deleted member 16048]

Which isn't true at all.

Modern ICE cars in the $50K range have ventilated seats, HUD, 360 cameras, digital rear view mirror, 2nd row heated, etc etc. Heck my 23 Grand Cherokee has most of those except the HUD....

Mach-E Premium is super basic in comparison to modern SUVs in the same price range. I argue EVs are cheeeap and often budgety. My GC has real leather seats too as did my Telluride and they are/were $10K cheaper too.

Key word is TEND to. You can always find cases where it's not true, and cases where it is. So yes, my statement is true, but in your specific example it is not. Not to mention your example is comparing a premium tier, which is going to be out of reach for those where price is the limiting factor. Anyways, there is a difference, and words matter.

I've watched gas stations and timed people's dwell times. People don't typically leave the gas station in less than 15 minutes. Especially families and older people, but even clearly road-tripping young people don't get out of the gas station all that quickly. And when it's a busy holiday weekend, gas stations along my route are absolutely awful to visit--the last one I was at was over a holiday weekend and the gas stations were full with super long lines, angry people, and just overall unpleasantness. I will be thrilled when I never have to visit another gas station.

Fully agree here. People generally don't have a true understanding of how much time is spent at a gas station as they think they do. Now for a solo driver, paying at the pump, you can have a pretty speedy experience compared to the same conditions at a DC Fast charger. However I think some of this should fall on the charging site location and design. If charging stations were designed with a full experience and a reason to actually go inside, or linger it could change perception and make it "feel" just as fast. Even if it's not.

 

[GreaseMonkey]

I've watched gas stations and timed people's dwell times. People don't typically leave the gas station in less than 15 minutes. Especially families and older people, but even clearly road-tripping young people don't get out of the gas station all that quickly.

I used to time our family’s stops. Gas + food never took less than 45 min. Two adults, one senior and two kids. It takes 45 min with the MME if planned right w/o waiting for a charger.

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