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Ford Range Increase Coming?

ajmartineau

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Please stop having the same kind of argument in nearly every thread. Go start a debate thread. Or whatever the disagreement of the day is.

There is at least one comment every day the I can prove, with my 2 BEV's in the driveway, is incorrect... but it not worth the headache of the endless bickering that would follow.
 

DBC

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But it doesn't. That's the point.

For example, our common I-70/I-15 road trip (785 miles) takes 2 gas stops in an ICE. Plug that route into ABRP in the AWD ER MME and it's 6 stops, averaging 30 minutes each. Adds more that 2 hours to the drive.

Do *some* drivers like to stop 6 times for 30 minutes each when driving ICE? Probably, but I suspect that's a very low%. Most people don't stop that often and that long. Which means it takes more stops and much longer on a full day drive for most people.
This is a great example. Unless your EV has more than 785 miles of range so you never have to stop, the trip time attributable to charging won't change regardless of whether you BEV has 250 or 350 miles of range.

This is true because the stopping time for refueling is set by how many kWh are needed and the time it takes to get those kWh into the battery. For example, if the trip requires that 300 kWh of electricity be put into the battery, and the charge rate is 50 kWh/hour, then you're looking at 6 hours of charging. You can do that in 6 one hour charging sessions or 3 two hour charging sessions or 2 three hour charging sessions. But in all cases it will take six hours of charging to get those 300 kWh into the battery. And this holds true regardless of whether your vehicle has a range of 250 miles or 300 miles or 350 miles or 400 miles.

Of course the six stops might take a little longer because you have to get off the highway and find the charger and so forth, but it's not going to be significantly different.

Basically the only factors affecting trip time are the efficiency of the vehicle -- which reduces the number of kWh needed for the trip -- and the effective charging rate -- which changes how many kWh go into the battery per unit time. Range doesn't matter. (Happy to entertain a counter example).

This is one of the differences between an ICE vehicle with a refueling rate of 250 miles/minute and a BEV with a refueling rate of 2.5 miles/minute: for long trips in an ICE vehicle range matters but for long trips in a BEV charge rates are far more important than range.
 

DBC

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My 50+ mile AM commute is mostly at high speed but the average is much less, just like the EPA test.
The joke when I lived in Atlanta was that US06 was based on an Atlanta commute! A 100 mile daily commute doesn't seem like fun.
 

dbsb3233

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you can easily make the EV's EPA numbers.
Oh drivers certainly can make EPA range if driving slow enough and under the right conditions. Especially city driving. But that's not the what we're referring to here. We're talking about what mileage (and thus range) is like on constant high-speed interstate segments, driving normally. Like, "Get on the interstate and drive across Kansas or Texas or Ohio" type of thing.

And as the Car & Driver data shows (and confirmed by many other testers), that range is nearly always well below EPA range. The question is usually "how much below".
 

JayTee

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Don't need Car and Driver, take it from me, a 40,000 mile EV driver (likely more EV miles that entire C&D staff), you can easily make the EV's EPA numbers.

As with ICE cars, you do better than EPA in nice weather, less than EPA in bad weather.
But not at 75 or 80 miles an hour on the highway.
 
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dbsb3233

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This is a great example. Unless your EV has more than 785 miles of range so you never have to stop, the trip time attributable to charging won't change regardless of whether you BEV has 250 or 350 miles of range.
Not exactly, because the first leg is usually refueled overnight at home (or the destination upon return) on L2 where time is usually a non-issue. The first leg is basically a freebie time-wise. So the longer the range, the longer you can go on that leg to possibly eliminate a stop.

But for the remainder of the miles, you're right, the total refueling time is going to be roughly the same whether done in 2 stops or 6. (And be way longer than ICE.) That doesn't necessarily mean it's the same negative impact overall though. I'd much rather do 2 or 3 longer stops than 6 shorter ones, and make use of that time to do a nice slow sit-down meal rather than a shorter fast food. And/or do something else like shopping or sightseeing in a 90-minute stop than 3 times as many 30-minute stops.

That doesn't mean we couldn't choose to do 6 30-minute stops instead if we wanted, and some drivers prefer that. But ICE-like high-speed range would give us that choice. As it is in the MME (or any BEV), we won't have that choice. Just part of the compromise.

The other factor is limited charging locations. That spacing actually dictates many of the stops. The MME could probably do that 785 in just 4-5 stops if chargers were spaced perfectly for it, but rarely is that the case.

It also turns out that for this particular drive, it actually means the difference in the cost of a hotel night each direction. 785 miles was just enough that we could do it same day in about 12 hours, which is our practical limit for a day. In a BEV that pushes it to 14 hours, which we'll have to break into 2 days. But that wouldn't be the case on a 600 mile drive. Basically the longer the road trip, the more the impact.
 

silverelan

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I would suggest you wait until the actual Mach E numbers are released. Also, is range the only decision criteria?
You bet. Range/recharging is certainly a big criteria. Anybody considering the Mach-E has this in mind. The acceptability of the Mach-E's range/recharging is affected by its contemporaries and that's the stick by which I'm measuring.
 

eastern refugee

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I have owned nothing but ICE cars and now I am trading them all off for 2 MME. We do drive around 25,000 miles on each car. I look at charging rates but also maintenance costs. I worry after 125,000 miles. The costs are sudden and the thought of being stuck in the middle of no where is scary. I feel way more comfortable knowing that a BEV can go over twice that distance without major issues. With any purchase there are both positives and negatives. Yes charging will slow down the trip but then again on long road trips I value the trip/journey sometimes more than the destination. I have way more fond memories of the journey itself.

you can NEVER gain a single minute back in your life. Once it is gone it is gone forever. If the extra time to stop is concerning then fly. Flying gets you from point A to B the fastest without question. Now before any of you rain on my thought process I will say I value the time that I have in my car with friends or family. I also LOVE a challenge. You tell me I cannot get from point A to point B because of charging issues. My thought is I cannot wait to try. Anytime someone tells me what I cannot do that makes me want to do it more.

I am looking forward to my first road trip just to say NANANANA I did it. I also live the concept of stoping to eat in the heat of say arizona leaving my car on the entire time so that it is cool when I get back into it. In short I am looking at the good aspects and the challenges are worth the risk. After all that time will be remembered and talked about again and again.
 

JayTee

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Same for ICE.

Right. Which doesn't matter because ice cars have a range of 400 mi with gas stations every 10. This is why highway range matters and city range doesn't. In the cities there are charging stations every few miles and you charge every 30 (most people) miles. Out in the country they are every 70 or 100.

Instead of me repeatedly trying to tell you why highway range matters, why don't you tell me why city range matters?
 

LYTMCQ

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Which doesn't matter because ice cars have a range of 400 mi with gas stations every 10.
Just mentioning it in that it proved your point wrong about not being able to get EPA numbers from ICE and EVs. EPA numbers are solid, better than EU or China test numbers, and all drivers can meet them with regular every day driving.

The variation on EV's is higher but all still doable.

Bottom line the EPA numbers on range and efficiency are good for comparison and good for real world driving expectations.
 

dbsb3233

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Bottom line the EPA numbers on range and efficiency are good for comparison and good for real world driving expectations.
Well, for applying to city driving maybe. They're kinda crap for applying to highway road tripping.

ev-range-v3-1591932722.png
 

JayTee

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Just mentioning it in that it proved your point wrong about not being able to get EPA numbers from ICE and EVs. EPA numbers are solid, better than EU or China test numbers, and all drivers can meet them with regular every day driving.

The variation on EV's is higher but all still doable.

Bottom line the EPA numbers on range and efficiency are good for comparison and good for real world driving expectations.

Really? The Porsche tycan 4A has an EPA rating of 203, but insideevs drove it 75 mph for $277 miles a couple weeks ago. That same organization drove the Model 3 @75 for less than its EPA rating.
 
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