Ford Range Increase Coming?

[EVer]

So it is a constant for each vehicle? Thanks good point.

If the test team does it consistently, yes. That isn’t a guarantee.

Setting ambient temperature is trivial. Characterizing drag is not. With CFD is easier than in the past, but if two parties are building the model, two sets of results aren’t unlikely.

Within the EPA or within a make, results are probably consistent. But if Ford built a model for a BMW, and if Toyota built a model for a Ferrari, there is a good chance BMW and Ferrari would disagree to some degree.

EPA ratings come from the OEM. EPA verifies a small percentage of them, but if they've published what they consider to be an acceptable deviation from their own results, I haven't found it.

My point isn't that the test is flawed. The test is fine, it just has a margin for error in dyno load.

It could be better if they actually ran the vehicles around a track at standard ambient conditions so that drag was actual, not calculated and then converted into the load on the dyno, after which the results go through one of several acceptable 'real world' fudge factors.

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[DBC]

Exactly. Except a true high speed highway number, not the "parkway"-like avg speed they purport as highway. They basically give slow and medium speed MPGe numbers.

This is wrong. The EPA has a Q&A that frames your misimpression as a question and then rebuts it. Perhaps it will help.

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4. I heard that the top speed in EPA's highway test is 60 mph. Since everyone knows that people drive much faster, why should I believe EPA's highway (and combined) mpg estimates?

Vehicles are tested at a top speed of 80 mph in order to calculate the highway mpg estimates.

EPA utilizes five test cycles to represent real-world driving conditions. While it's true that the test cycle historically labeled as the "highway" test has a top speed of 60 mph, this test is currently meant to represent driving on lower speed highways as well as rural and suburban driving. EPA's highway mpg estimates are primarily derived from a separate "high speed" test cycle, which has a top speed of 80 mph.

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Again, the EPA's highway test is primarily derived from a separate "high speed" test that includes several hard accelerations and reaches a top speed of 80 mph. So it does not reflect a "parkway" drive unless you drive 80 mph on a parkway.

 

[dbsb3233]

This is wrong. The EPA has a Q&A that frames your misimpression as a question and then rebuts it. Perhaps it will help.

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4. I heard that the top speed in EPA's highway test is 60 mph. Since everyone knows that people drive much faster, why should I believe EPA's highway (and combined) mpg estimates?

Vehicles are tested at a top speed of 80 mph in order to calculate the highway mpg estimates.

EPA utilizes five test cycles to represent real-world driving conditions. While it's true that the test cycle historically labeled as the "highway" test has a top speed of 60 mph, this test is currently meant to represent driving on lower speed highways as well as rural and suburban driving. EPA's highway mpg estimates are primarily derived from a separate "high speed" test cycle, which has a top speed of 80 mph.

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Again, the EPA's highway test is primarily derived from a separate "high speed" test that includes several hard accelerations and reaches a top speed of 80 mph. So it does not reflect a "parkway" drive unless you drive 80 mph on a parkway.

We've been over this. That US06 test only PEAKS at 80 MPH. It still only AVERAGES 48 MPH, same as the other test.

Driving a 75 MPH interstate from one charger to another on a road trip is gonna average more like 73-74 MPH, not 48.

 

[DBC]

But it might be connected to the sensor for the outside ambient.

I don't know how it works, but I've never experienced the behavior you've described with other BEVs, and I sure hope the the Mach-E doesn't break that streak.

 

[DBC]

We've been over this. That US06 test only PEAKS at 80 MPH. It still only AVERAGES 48 MPH, same as the other test.

For elections some are fond of saying: "It's the economy stupid". For drive cycles the saying is: "It's the accelerations stupid".

Didn't you link to the Car and Driver article which described how US06 was so aggressive they thought some vehicles simply couldn't do it? In any event, the cycle is more aggressive than a steady 70 mph.

 

[eastern refugee]

I really am getting tired of reading the debate about which is more accurate when it comes to a lab test result v. real life. I'm sure I am not the only one. They both has important value to all of us. Yes, a lab test is repeatable, because it is always in a constant ideal control. Yes, a real life test result is important because WE LIVE IN AND DRIVE IN REAL LIFE, not a lab controlled environment. Can we agree to disagree about which is MORE important and just get excited for the delivery of our highly anticipated new cars? Please.

Thank you!!!! The words of wisdom.

 

[dbsb3233]

For elections some are fond of saying: "It's the economy stupid". For drive cycles the saying is: "It's the accelerations stupid".

Didn't you link to the Car and Driver article which described how US06 was so aggressive they thought some vehicles simply couldn't do it? In any event, the cycle is more aggressive than a steady 70 mph.

That's completely apples to oranges. I don't give a hoot about acceleration (at least for this purpose). Or regen gains, which those rapid ups and downs surely include. We're talking long high-speed stretches, like a normal between-cities interstate drive that millions of Americans do when they take a road trip. That's a tiny bit of "get on the interstate" and a tiny bit of "get off the interstate" at the end with 99% steady 75 MPH (or 70 or 80 or whichever interstate speed they might choose to measure.

That's not even remotely close to what that US06 measures. In fact it's nearly the opposite. They spend maybe all of 5% of the graph at 70+.

If EPA chooses not to do a representative high-speed range test, so be it. But we shouldn't be pretending that they already are.

 

[Ford49]

 

[EVer]

But it might be connected to the sensor for the outside ambient.

I don't know how it works, but I've never experienced the behavior you've described with other BEVs, and I sure hope the the Mach-E doesn't break that streak.

I’ve never experienced the alleged behavior with tesla either.

Returning to a car the same day you parked it and finding a 90% reduction in SOC isn’t indicative of ambient temperature, it’s indicative of a car which was using a lot of energy while parked, for example running sentry mode and HVAC, or a car someone else took for a joy ride.

 

[Gilles]

I fully agree. The "Fuel economy" website still shows the model Y as 216 miles and 297 highway miles. EPA miles in the city do not matter as much as on highway. I also think having basic information in front of the wheel is important. So is the ability to turn the volume down without looking at a screen.

 

[malba2366]

The range increase will come from "gamesmanship" of the numbers. I doubt they will unlock additional battery capacity until they have more data from thousands of vehicles on the road. WTLP numbers should be used as a better comparison of one vehicle to another, since WTLP does not allow the use of varying multipliers like the EPA does. If you look at Tesla's EPA vs WTLP they are very close, while others such as Porsche/Audi are significantly different. When real world tests are done under identical conditions the Porsche/Audi models get very close to their EPA numbers while Tesla significantly underperforms the EPA numbers. Tesla still has the most range, but the delta is not as great as the EPA estimates suggest.

 

[dbsb3233]

If I were to place a bet now, I'd place it on the EPA numbers meeting the original targets, not beating them or falling short. Within a few miles anyway (like 304 or 298 or something like that).

But still holding out some hope for an eventual OTA update that releases a little more battery reserve next year (adding another 10-20 miles).

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