Is the Mach-E really 7 years behind Tesla?

[kdryden99]

It really depends on where you live. Where I am it might be useful for 3-4months depending a) the amount of range you preserve b) the optimal operating range. I can precondition the car almost everywhere i will go but the problem still is I get extreme temps between Dec and March. If it doesnt do much between 10f and -40f then does that extra expense save me any headaches? We've already seen the major reason Tesla introduced the octovalve was because they're cars are the most affected by cold weather
https://www.autoweek.com/news/green-cars/a31898441/study-ev-winter-range-loss-averages-19/
So its normal theyd want to fix that. But i would really like to able to know beforehand what kind of range I can gain. If you tell ne 10-20 miles than that 1k$ might not be worth it but if you're telling me its almost 20% than for 1k$ and in -25f than ill strongly need to consider it.

The debate on whether or not its useful doesnt depend on the tech because its a sound technology, it depends on your luving conditions.

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[Badger_Prof]

So does anybody think that my post about him being a troll and ignoring seem far fetched now

I feel liberated having now “ignored” this guy (and his prior persona of Mach-MI).

 

[Nak]

This video is dead-on about it. So who was right ?

Great video. What's interesting is that the patent includes the option of a 12v resistive heater in the cabin HVAC system. I went back and looked at the Sandy Munro videos, he never mentions a resistive heater one way or the other. So I did a bit more research and found this article. According to Elon the heat pump has a "local heating loop" to initiate cabin heating. He is not clear whether the heat pump has a resistive heater built in that he is calling a "local heat loop" or if it is a dedicated portion of the heat pump to provide heat through normal heat pump function. It sounds to me, and I could be wrong, like there is a resistive heater in the pump itself that provides quick reaction heat to the cabin until the heat pump itself starts producing heat. https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/0...ggering-10-increase-in-range-for-the-model-y/

I do know that I get both heat and cooling from my Y almost immediately. I've had it in 100+ F temps, but not colder than 30 F yet.

I haven't had to melt ice off of my Y yet, but just set the cabin pre-conditioning to whatever time you need to, regardless of which EV you're driving.

As far as reliability, watch this video. Way less complicated means way more reliable. One radiator vs two or three. Sandy Munro heat pump video.

 

[efisher]

You have waste heat coming from the battery and the motors that you have to get rid of. You can run coolant to a radiator to disperse the heat to the atmosphere, or you can use it to heat the battery and cabin when needed. (Sometimes batteries need to be cooled, sometimes they need to be heated.) If you disperse the heat to the atmosphere, you must then use battery power through a dedicated heater. Waste heat is effectively "free" energy you can use. Not really free, you've paid for it once. But since you've paid for it once already, why not use it rather than throw it away and pay for more heat?

What the octovalve does is route coolant to where it is needed and at the temperature it is needed. The same coolant provides both heat and cools the CMB (cabin, motors and battery) when needed. That's where the complexity is reduced. One system for both heating and cooling. The radiator can disperse heat to the atmosphere when needed. The heat pump and the octovalve act as a system. Picture this: You know your ICE vehicle has engine coolant going to the cabin to provide heat and AC lines going to the cabin to provide cooling. With the octovalve, instead of two systems you have one system. One set of coolant lines run to the cabin. If you demand cooling, the octovalve routes cold coolant to the cabin; if you demand heat you get hot coolant. If the entire system is producing too much heat (Hot ambient temps) coolant is routed to the radiator to disperse heat to the atmosphere. One might argue that an ICE thermostat serves the same function, but it doesn't. The ICE thermostat can't determine if that excess heat is needed elsewhere, the octovalve can and does.

I agree with everything you say. I agree that the octovalve and heat pump are a net positive. The only thing that I really take issue with was the sentiment expressed elsewhere in this thread is that the octovalve by itself makes an EV inherently superior to any other EV regardless of the any other features that vehicle may offer. All cars incorporate unique groupings of features that represent the priorities of the designers and their perceptions of what their customers want. For me, the Mach E is a better solution than the model Y. if the Model S were offered at the same price, I would take the Model S. But that is the nature of design, to create the best package you can for a specific price. For me, the Mach E is a better value. Could it be improved by adding an octovalve, possibly, but that would depend on what trade-offs incorporating such a device would require.

 

[efisher]

Go tear down a Model Y and point to the resistive heater. I'll wait.

Hint: it isn't there.

Please note around 5:20 into the following video where they point out the suplemental 12v heater:

 

[Jolteon]

Please note around 5:20 into the following video where they point out the suplemental 12v heater:

Please note that that is incorrect - it describes Tesla's patent, not what is actually in the vehicle. The 12V heater is not present in the production vehicle.

 

[Jolteon]

I agree with everything you say. I agree that the octovalve and heat pump are a net positive. The only thing that I really take issue with was the sentiment expressed elsewhere in this thread is that the octovalve by itself makes an EV inherently superior to any other EV regardless of the any other features that vehicle may offer. All cars incorporate unique groupings of features that represent the priorities of the designers and their perceptions of what their customers want. For me, the Mach E is a better solution than the model Y. if the Model S were offered at the same price, I would take the Model S. But that is the nature of design, to create the best package you can for a specific price. For me, the Mach E is a better value. Could it be improved by adding an octovalve, possibly, but that would depend on what trade-offs incorporating such a device would require.

Oh the Mach-E is absolutely a better car than the Model Y, you won't hear me say otherwise.

Doesn't mean the Mach-E couldn't be even better.

 

[efisher]

As far as reliability, watch this video. Way less complicated means way more reliable. One radiator vs two or three. Sandy Munro heat pump video.

I would argue that the Munro video is a little misleading because the condenser is effectively a second radiator.

 

[Jolteon]

And yet... there isn't one. It's impressive how they engineered this heat pump.

 

[efisher]

The Model Y's solution is elegant because it's roughly the same cost as a non-heat pump PTC system that the Model 3 has, which is why they're rolling it into the 3 now - they get more range for the same money.

I cannot really agree with you here. There is a definite tradeoff. Heat pumps add weight and complexity well beyond simple resistive heating. Space heaters are about as simple and lightweight as it gets. If the difference between resistive heating and using a heat pump was as obvious as heat pump proponents proclaim than Tesla would have been using them since the beginning. They are not new technology and are used by other EV manufacturers. I suspect that they decided that they could offer some slight advantage integrating a heat pump into the Model Y, but it is not the game changer that the marketing people would have you believe.

 

[efisher]

And yet... there isn't one. It's impressive how they engineered this heat pump.

What makes you so sure that there is no resistive heater in the Model Y? The Munro videos, while both interesting and fun, do not go into enough detail to rule one out.

 

[Nak]

What makes you so sure that there is no resistive heater in the Model Y? The Munro videos, while both interesting and fun, do not go into enough detail to rule one out.

Great video. What's interesting is that the patent includes the option of a 12v resistive heater in the cabin HVAC system. I went back and looked at the Sandy Munro videos, he never mentions a resistive heater one way or the other. So I did a bit more research and found this article. According to Elon the heat pump has a "local heating loop" to initiate cabin heating. He is not clear whether the heat pump has a resistive heater built in that he is calling a "local heat loop" or if it is a dedicated portion of the heat pump to provide heat through normal heat pump function. It sounds to me, and I could be wrong, like there is a resistive heater in the pump itself that provides quick reaction heat to the cabin until the heat pump itself starts producing heat. https://cleantechnica.com/2020/08/0...ggering-10-increase-in-range-for-the-model-y/

 

[Nak]

The only thing that I really take issue with was the sentiment expressed elsewhere in this thread is that the octovalve by itself makes an EV inherently superior to any other EV regardless of the any other features that vehicle may offer.

Absolutely agreed. No one feature makes any car better. Even a group of features only makes one car more preferable to certain people. Everyone has to decide for themselves what their needs are and what car fits their needs--both utilitarian and emotional--the best.

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