Jump starting ICEs

[kdryden99]

since the pandemic I have purchased a battery conditioner for my 12V battery.
I am guessing I wouldn’t need to do this for EV since the car can detect the voltage on the 12V and charge it using it main battery pack.
I would think they have to do this so that the car can be connected to 4G all the time.

Was wondering if by putting the conditioner on the 12v battery if it would prevent the drive battery from charging 12v and therefore reduce the the battery draw

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[SnBGC]

From What I read Teslas come with a Lithium 12v.

Via Teslarati " The 12V load while in the off-state is often much higher due to advanced computer systems that are running to maintain the high-voltage battery, keep vehicle “connected” (all EV have some remote access features), maintain charging and BMS (Battery Management System) communications, etc. In fact a Tesla Model S/X puts about 50 Watts of load on the 12V system when the vehicle is in the “off” state. 50 Watts equals about 4.5 Amps of discharge on the 12V battery, this drains the battery down relatively rapidly and requires the 12V battery be “recharged” by the high-voltage battery regularly, this usage pattern results in many cycles being placed on the battery.

When you combine the high number of cycles and the low current requirements of the electric vehicle 12V battery system you arrive at a completely different battery need than that of an ICE vehicle. Lead Acid batteries are very good at high discharge and low cycle count life-styles, this is their bread and butter and this is where they last a long time and provide the most bang for the buck (cheap cost and decent product life-cycle), but they aren’t lasting in electric vehicles.


The electric vehicle 12V battery system is one that is best suited by a battery capable of tremendous cycle-life as the main design goal. The battery chemistry that suits this usage scenario best? Lithium! Lithium battery technology is specifically very good at being cycled many times and continuing to provide minimal capacity loss and degradation. This, along with reduced weight, is why these batteries are used for the high-voltage battery packs, cell-phones, laptops, medical equipment and cars where batteries are being cycled frequently and longevity is important."

I assume its the same with the Mach E. Especailly with the lower resistance it'll help the inverter charge the 12V much quicker. If the Li-Ion is too expensive the next best thing is the AGM.
https://www.teslarati.com/why-tesla-12v-battery-needs-to-be-lithium-ion/

See post #19 above. Photo is of a standard Motorcraft lead acid type battery. That is the original battery, almost 4 years old. My FFE hardly draws any power while vehicle is in "off" state. I assume the Mach E will be very similar. Ford knows how to build ECM, BCM etc that have minimal parasitic loss while off.

Tesla's method isn't ideal and somewhat wasteful. From the information you posted above.....I can understand why they need such an expensive LVB. I doubt Ford will follow Tesla's example in this case.

 

[SnBGC]

since the pandemic I have purchased a battery conditioner for my 12V battery.
I am guessing I wouldn’t need to do this for EV since the car can detect the voltage on the 12V and charge it using it main battery pack.
I would think they have to do this so that the car can be connected to 4G all the time.

I don't expect the MME would maintain the 12v battery while off. That would require closing the contactors for the HVB to activate the DC-DC converter. Ford doesn't allow that on the FFE or their Energi models so they probably won't on the MME either. There is some risk there so better safe than sorry.

I would expect the vehicle to hibernate if the 12v battery voltage drops below a certain level and the user would get an alert via their Ford app. That is how Ford handles it now.

I guess we will figure out if there are any changes to this method when the Service Manuals are made available. See additional comments below....

Was wondering if by putting the conditioner on the 12v battery if it would prevent the drive battery from charging 12v and therefore reduce the the battery draw

Unless I have missed a technical bulletin that says otherwise......the vehicle must be in "Ready Mode" for the HVB to charge the LVB. When in "off" mode, the HVB is mechanically disconnected from all the other systems on the vehicle.....including the DC-DC converter.

That being said.......it wouldn't be too much effort for Ford to include a 12v float charger that runs off shore power. So, leaving the vehicle plugged in might keep the LVB topped off. I don't see anything like that on the FFE electrical schematics so I presume it doesn't exist on those cars. But it is possible that Ford might have changed their minds on the MME to allow for Over The Air updates to download without drawing down the LVB more than desired.

That would be a pretty cool feature....

 

[kdryden99]

I don't expect the MME would maintain the 12v battery while off. That would require closing the contactors for the HVB to activate the DC-DC converter. Ford doesn't allow that on the FFE or their Energi models so they probably won't on the MME either. There is some risk there so better safe than sorry.

I would expect the vehicle to hibernate if the 12v battery voltage drops below a certain level and the user would get an alert via their Ford app. That is how Ford handles it now.

I guess we will figure out if there are any changes to this method when the Service Manuals are made available. See additional comments below....





Unless I have missed a technical bulletin that says otherwise......the vehicle must be in "Ready Mode" for the HVB to charge the LVB. When in "off" mode, the HVB is mechanically disconnected from all the other systems on the vehicle.....including the DC-DC converter.

That being said.......it wouldn't be too much effort for Ford to include a 12v float charger that runs off shore power. So, leaving the vehicle plugged in might keep the LVB topped off. I don't see anything like that on the FFE electrical schematics so I presume it doesn't exist on those cars. But it is possible that Ford might have changed their minds on the MME to allow for Over The Air updates to download without drawing down the LVB more than desired.

That would be a pretty cool feature....

I was hoping they would have included something like this that would bypass the HVB. It would be redundant to use a battery tender as while charging the car. I mean i wont need it cause i drive a lot but for others it could be very useful.

 

[ChasingCoral]

This has been posted on the Forum before. It applies to Ford's current BEV and PHEV vehicles but will probably apply to the Mach E as well.

 

[ChasingCoral]

New information on jumping your Mach E in today's release of the E-Latch video:

 

[macchiaz-o]

Good info in that video. Right now I keep a Li-ion jump starter pack in my glove box. Sounds like a better place to keep it in Mach-E will be in the frunk, since I might be unable to open vehicle doors while 12V battery is dead.

Further, if I can't even open the frunk, then I'd need a 12V source that I can jumper to one of the front access points. That's a bit disappointing.

At the original reveal, Ford said there are super capacitors at each front door e-latch so that they can be opened from outside the vehicle in the event of a 12V power loss. I assumed it'd have enough energy to at least allow entry through the b-pillar numeric pad. Sounds like that is no longer the case?

Being able to get into the passenger cabin would be my preference over frunk access, since the frunk can be opened from the cabin and not the other way around.

Also, I'm wondering if the tow hook 12V leads are ignored while the vehicle's 12V system is functioning properly? I hope so, otherwise they can be easily used to gain access to my emergency shrimp and wings storage supply.

 

[ChasingCoral]

Good info in that video. Right now I keep a Li-ion jump starter pack in my glove box. Sounds like a better place to keep it in Mach-E will be in the frunk, since I might be unable to open vehicle doors while 12V battery is dead.

Further, if I can't even open the frunk, then I'd need a 12V source that I can jumper to one of the front access points. That's a bit disappointing.

At the original reveal, Ford said there are super capacitors at each front door e-latch so that they can be opened from outside the vehicle in the event of a 12V power loss. I assumed it'd have enough energy to at least allow entry through the b-pillar numeric pad. Sounds like that is no longer the case?

Being able to get into the passenger cabin would be my preference over frunk access, since the frunk can be opened from the cabin and not the other way around.

Also, I'm wondering if the tow hook 12V leads are ignored while the vehicle's 12V system is functioning properly? I hope so, otherwise they can be easily used to gain access to my emergency shrimp and wings storage supply.

Yes, I suspect the tow hook leads operate the Frunk release only. We've seen that the key fob has a Frunk release, so clearly it can be opened electronically.

Maybe you'll want to velcro the Li-ion pack behind the front bumper or something.

 

[dtbaker61]

First thing we all should do is browse the owners manual and find the emergency disconnect device. Then physically locate it so you know how to find it. Then show everyone in your household so they know too.

If you or your family gets into an accident then knowing where to find that connector could save your life and/or the lives of first responders.

...I totally agree... but cannot find the HV disconnect (or (cut loop) location in the manuals.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

...I totally agree... but cannot find the HV disconnect (or (cut loop) location in the manuals.

Rescue card attached. see also 2021_Mach-E_ERG.pdf (ford.com)

 

[dtbaker61]

Rescue card attached. see also 2021_Mach-E_ERG.pdf (ford.com)

fab... just what I was looking for.... I'll probably provide easy access and label it for Responder safety

Turns out is is just a disconnect of the LVB, which de-engerizes the main contactor and opens the actual HV circuit. Too bad it is not an actual HV cut loop or HV disconnect, it would have provided a handy place to insert a shunt or ammeter to monitor actual current.

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