Mach-E EPA Ratings Revealed in Window Sticker!

[JamieGeek]

I wonder if some of the EV engineers are beginning to realize that "saving the battery life" efforts might make the difference between 25 years or 20 years while staying above 80% of original capacity? That even 20 years for most people is well beyond their expected ownership horizon...

I know some early adopters, like the initial Leaf owners and many Energi owners (myself included) were disappointed by steep battery degradation. However, I believe the latest approaches to BMS software will help owners achieve significant longevity. For example, I have nearly 20k miles on my Kona, have seen no discernable battery degradation since the first month after the software adjusted to my driving habits and gave me a range of closer to 250 instead of 258 miles (I tend to drive quite "sporty" but I still get 3.8 to 4.1 mi/kWh on any given trip. My lifetime average is 4.0 mi/kWh, a theoretical range of 256 mi at that efficiency level. That is with A/C and ventilated seats on most of the time, cruise set at 70 or 75 most of the time, with passing spurts up to 85/90 mph.)

I saw no battery degredation in my Focus electric. When I turned it in after 3 years and 30k miles it showed the same range/capacity as when I picked it up.

Note that the Ford Energi PHEV models did not have an active BMS; all they had was a simple fan in the battery compartment (if that).

The Focus Electric had an active BMS with cooling loops integrated into the rest of the heating/cooling system in the car.

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[timbop]

That makes sense. The articles I have read say Tesla's rear permanent magnet motor is more efficient, and the front inductive motor is only used when you need it. And as you said, you cannot turn off the permanent magnets so the motors must be "always on". Probably the extra weight makes a difference as well as someone else suggested.

I have not ordered a Mach-E yet, and I cannot decide between the LR AWD or LR RWD. Range is really important to me, but so is the fun of accelerating to 60 in less than five seconds. I have read all the arguments in this thread (and others) regarding range and the spacing of chargers, but I want to drive 80 mph. And I want to drive as far as possible without stopping. Personally, I think 30 miles more range is huge. Arrrg! I really want the AWD!

Since you've waited this long you should probably just wait until the actual driving reviews come out from the usual suspects who do a pretty good job of testing at highway speeds. If money (OK my wife) were no object, I would definitely have gotten the ER AWD. Instead we compromised and I got the Route 1 over the SR AWD because I have a 100 mile commute and I just didn't want to cut it that close in the winter. What's the point of an AWD BEV if you can't drive it to work and back? In retrospect with the numbers that are being announced I probably would have been fine witrh the SR AWD, but I am still very glad I got the longest range MME to lessen my range anxiety.

 

[Maric]

The last tesla’s report I saw was telling that now we can charge battery at 100% without any constraints on the Y model...
Moreover with an EPA range of more than 300 for a AWD...
If it’s true I will certainly switch my MME reservation for a TMY !
One more point is that I’m beginning to be fed up with these pettiness of Ford on matrix headlight and towing limitations...and so on and so on.
Too bad because this MME has a beautiful look...but that’s not more enough for me anymore.

You might want to reconsider.

https://ca.reuters.com/article/us-autos-reliability-tesla-idCAKBN27Z28C

 

[engnrng]

While this specific article provided by Lyt is based on consumer products like i-Phones, a more relevant Battery University article to my interest in EV's is

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/electric_vehicle_ev

and

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_1003a_battery_aging_in_an_electric_vehicle_ev

Caveat: Although the articles provide recent update dates, it is obvious to me that only some parts of the articles have been updated that recently. Both articles in their original creation are close to 10 years old.

 

[Pyrene]

You might want to reconsider.

Yes, it’s sure...

 

[EVer]

While this specific article provided by Lyt is based on consumer products like i-Phones, a more relevant Battery University article to my interest in EV's is

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/electric_vehicle_ev

and

https://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/bu_1003a_battery_aging_in_an_electric_vehicle_ev

Caveat: Although the articles provide recent update dates, it is obvious to me that only some parts of the articles have been updated that recently. Both articles in their original creation are close to 10 years old.

Pertinent point in this discussion, from the second link:

“Keeping Li-ion at high SoC affects battery life more than cycling in mid SoC range.”

Don’t “fill’er up” and then let it sit.

 

[txaggies07]

Model Y has better range with same performance/utility as Mach E...that is a competitive issue for Ford. Yes Tesla has fit and finish problems, but Ford has released their share or poorly built vehicles too (time will tell if the Mach E build quality is up to snuff). Tesla does not need to build "compliance cars" since their entire lineup is EVs.

My problem is that the Y is about 10k more than the RWD SR Premium MachE I ordered. After X plan and federal rebate I should get my MachE for about 40k. The MY would cost me over 50k. Yes it has better range and performance that the MachE I ordered, but at a price.

 

[mkhuffman]

Since you've waited this long you should probably just wait until the actual driving reviews come out from the usual suspects who do a pretty good job of testing at highway speeds.

Good advice. That's exactly what I am going to do. I have been waiting for a year for Rivian to produce their 400+ mile range truck, and it looks like another 14 months before they produce it. So I can wait a couple months to see how the Mach-E reviews come out.

I am probably going to decide on fun over range...

 

[Nak]

Why can't it go to the battery? The BMS is imposing a min and max on battery SoC during charging. Perhaps the max is a bit higher while driving.

Not saying @trutolife27 is right, simply pointing out that what he has claimed can easily be correct.

I guess there could be extreme cases, like charging 100% at the top of Pikes Peak. But I would struggle to find a normal driving condition case where the vehicle couldn't regen. You would have to have a trip where the range at the end of the trip is greater than when you started.

I think there is a little confusion around about regenerative breaking. I might be wrong and just reading some posts wrong. The point I was questioning was whether regenerative braking would be reduced as opposed to stopped completely. I read @trutolife27 's post as saying regenerative braking wouldn't be reduced at high SOCs.

The first thing to remember is that even if Ford has set aside some battery capacity above 100% on the gauge, regen would still be limited at high SOCs. You don't have full regen up to 99.9% and then it stops. The battery charging profile will tell you how much you'll lose. Above 80%, the BMS really starts throttling back charging current to prevent damage to the battery. It starts earlier than that, but above 80% it's a steep curve. If the battery is cold, you taper back even more, to the point where regen isn't even a player at 50% SOC.

Energy can not be created or destroyed. It can only be converted into something else. To slow a car down with any kind of brakes, you have to convert the kinetic energy of the car into something else. Standard friction brakes convert the kinetic energy into heat, which is then dispersed into the atmosphere. Regenerative brakes convert kinetic energy into stored chemical energy in the battery; i.e. the motors turn into generators and produce an electrical current which charges the battery. The battery is limited in how fast it can charge by both SOC and temperature. Regenerative braking is limited whenever the charging capacity of the battery is achieved. when that happens the friction brakes have to take up the difference. In the real world this happens a lot above 80% SOC, and even more when it's even below 50F out.

I can't see how it's possible that the Mach-e wouldn't have limited regenerative braking under high SOC or cold temperatures. I would love to be wrong on this, but I'd have to hear some technical details before I'd believe it.

 

[RonTCat]

I think there is a little confusion around about regenerative breaking. I might be wrong and just reading some posts wrong. The point I was questioning was whether regenerative braking would be reduced as opposed to stopped completely. I read @trutolife27 's post as saying regenerative braking wouldn't be reduced at high SOCs.

The first thing to remember is that even if Ford has set aside some battery capacity above 100% on the gauge, regen would still be limited at high SOCs. You don't have full regen up to 99.9% and then it stops. The battery charging profile will tell you how much you'll lose. Above 80%, the BMS really starts throttling back charging current to prevent damage to the battery. It starts earlier than that, but above 80% it's a steep curve. If the battery is cold, you taper back even more, to the point where regen isn't even a player at 50% SOC.

Energy can not be created or destroyed. It can only be converted into something else. To slow a car down with any kind of brakes, you have to convert the kinetic energy of the car into something else. Standard friction brakes convert the kinetic energy into heat, which is then dispersed into the atmosphere. Regenerative brakes convert kinetic energy into stored chemical energy in the battery; i.e. the motors turn into generators and produce an electrical current which charges the battery. The battery is limited in how fast it can charge by both SOC and temperature. Regenerative braking is limited whenever the charging capacity of the battery is achieved. when that happens the friction brakes have to take up the difference. In the real world this happens a lot above 80% SOC, and even more when it's even below 50F out.

I can't see how it's possible that the Mach-e wouldn't have limited regenerative braking under high SOC or cold temperatures. I would love to be wrong on this, but I'd have to hear some technical details before I'd believe it.

I'm sure the regen strategy could reach a regen limiting condition, but this likely is a pretty small edge case. A typical braking event might generate 50Kw for a few seconds, so you would have to find a battery state where this couldn't be fully absorbed. Even "regular" hybrids can absorb a few second 35Kw braking event.

 

[Nak]

I'm sure the regen strategy could reach a regen limiting condition, but this likely is a pretty small edge case. A typical braking event might generate 50Kw for a few seconds, so you would have to find a battery state where this couldn't be fully absorbed. Even "regular" hybrids can absorb a few second 35Kw braking event.

No, it's not an edge case. It's quite common actually. It would have less effect on a RWD vehicle because the regen is less than half as effective on a RWD vehicle. (More braking force is exerted on the front wheels because weight transfers forward during deceleration.) TBH, I don't know the power numbers, but I know what happens in the real world. Now, a vehicle which has regen braking less effective than a Tesla's would be affected less, just because it's going to generate less power while braking. I sincerely hope that isn't why the Mach-e isn't as affected by limited regen as the Tesla.

Here's a picture of the display in my Y just a few minutes ago. It's parked in the garage and hasn't been driven in a day or more, so it should be a pretty even 55F throughout the car. (Including the battery.) Notice I drew two lines, a black one and a green one. Right above those lines is the power bar, which is a gray line with some dots on the left side. When you are using power from the battery, a black line is drawn over the gray line starting at the center and moving further right the more power you use. When regen is active and charging the battery, a green line is drawn starting at the center and moves further left the more regen is charging the battery. Those dots show that regen is currently limited to about half power. The green line can only go to where the dots start. As the battery warms and moves to a lower SOC, the dots will start being replaced with more of the solid gray line. When the gray line completely replaces the dots, full regen is available. So if I go out and drive right now, my regen braking is cut in half and the difference is a huge difference, as you would expect.

As you can see, an 88% SOC combined with 55F ambient temperature has cut regen in half. Like I said, this will improve while driving, but it's going to take 20 - 30 minutes of driving to get near full regen back. You can mitigate this by scheduling your charging so that the battery stops charging just before you leave. That will get your battery warm enough that it isn't regen limited due to temperature. You're still going to be limited due to SOC at 90% unless your regen brakes are considerably less efficient than a Tesla AWD. Like I said, RWD is going to have less effective regen than AWD. That's just life.

I've not driven other EVs, and it's very possible some with less effective regen braking are going to feel less limited. Not because regen is better on these vehicles, but because regen is worse and is always limited on these vehicles.

 

[EVer]

Both articles in their original creation are close to 10 years old.

Say what? Lithium ion technology is closer to 35 years old than 10.

 

[EVer]

No, it's not an edge case. It's quite common actually. It would have less effect on a RWD vehicle because the regen is less than half as effective on a RWD vehicle. (More braking force is exerted on the front wheels because weight transfers forward during deceleration.) TBH, I don't know the power numbers, but I know what happens in the real world. Now, a vehicle which has regen braking less effective than a Tesla's would be affected less, just because it's going to generate less power while braking. I sincerely hope that isn't why the Mach-e isn't as affected by limited regen as the Tesla.

Here's a picture of the display in my Y just a few minutes ago. It's parked in the garage and hasn't been driven in a day or more, so it should be a pretty even 55F throughout the car. (Including the battery.) Notice I drew two lines, a black one and a green one. Right above those lines is the power bar, which is a gray line with some dots on the left side. When you are using power from the battery, a black line is drawn over the gray line starting at the center and moving further right the more power you use. When regen is active and charging the battery, a green line is drawn starting at the center and moves further left the more regen is charging the battery. Those dots show that regen is currently limited to about half power. The green line can only go to where the dots start. As the battery warms and moves to a lower SOC, the dots will start being replaced with more of the solid gray line. When the gray line completely replaces the dots, full regen is available. So if I go out and drive right now, my regen braking is cut in half and the difference is a huge difference, as you would expect.

As you can see, an 88% SOC combined with 55F ambient temperature has cut regen in half. Like I said, this will improve while driving, but it's going to take 20 - 30 minutes of driving to get near full regen back. You can mitigate this by scheduling your charging so that the battery stops charging just before you leave. That will get your battery warm enough that it isn't regen limited due to temperature. You're still going to be limited due to SOC at 90% unless your regen brakes are considerably less efficient than a Tesla AWD. Like I said, RWD is going to have less effective regen than AWD. That's just life.

I've not driven other EVs, and it's very possible some with less effective regen braking are going to feel less limited. Not because regen is better on these vehicles, but because regen is worse and is always limited on these vehicles.

It's possible ford will allow regen to charge the battery beyond 100%, which would mean exceeding the maximum designed electric potential (aka "voltage")of the cells. It's unlikely, but it's possible.

 

[dbsb3233]

I'm sure the regen strategy could reach a regen limiting condition, but this likely is a pretty small edge case. A typical braking event might generate 50Kw for a few seconds, so you would have to find a battery state where this couldn't be fully absorbed. Even "regular" hybrids can absorb a few second 35Kw braking event.

And then there's the fact that it takes more energy to get up to speed than you get back by slowing down with regen. As you said earlier, unless someone starts at 100% SOC on the top of a long steep mountain, I just don't see it being an issue.

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