Second gen mach-e probably not happening

[RonTCat]

Some things aren’t lining up here. Sorry to be the skeptic, but:

• The Op is a recent joiner with few posts and, per their profile, owns a maverick hybrid. Doesn’t seem to fit in with the Mach-E crowd that well.
• The OP is claiming that an unnamed source says that Ford is using a “new skunkworks approach” to develop their small EV platform. That information has been previously published. The approach is NOT new. Ford did something similar when they developed the Mustang Mach-E. It was called “Team Edison”. The claim is that their new team has former Tesla engineers on it. I believe Ford also tried to hire former Tesla (and other EV/battery) people when developing the Mustang Mach-E. In fact, Ford freely admitted that they heavily benchmarked the Tesla model 3/Y when developing the Mustang Mach-E (which is probably why I got my beloved koi pond.
• It would seem to be a colossal waste to throw out the entire Mustang Mach-E after one generation. I can only think of two other Ford product lines that only lived for one generation: the Edsel and the LTD II. I don’t think the Mustang Mach-E is an Edsel-class failure.

Since I’m not planning on replacing my current vehicle until MY26 (late CY25), I can wait to see what happens. I do know a few things:

• I will not willingly purchase another non-EV again (and that also rules out hybrids).
• I do not WANT to look elsewhere, but if all Ford puts on offer is a Fiesta with a repurposed Singer sewing machine motor and a few D-cells so that they can “compete with the Chinese”, I’m out of here. I don’t know where I’ll go (not Tesla, and as much as I want to like Lucid, I can’t get over their Saudi ownership).

This post is closer to reality.

CE1, CE2, TE1, TE2... there is lots of overlap. Look at Mach-E and Lightning... there is fundamentally little difference between the powertrains (Mach-E even uses the same RDU as Lightning now), and Sync 4 is not hugely different between the two vehicles. The same will happen with the CE* and TE* platforms.

To say CE2 is dead is a misnomer. It's just not a priority. If CE1 is first in line, it's a really small jump to CE2.

CE1 vehicles will come from another skunkworks, not the mainline Ford development system. The "new way" of designing vehicles is just a lesser version of the old way, minus the majority of the bureaucracy. The new team does have some Tesla ex-pats, but you are giving the Tesla folks way too much credit. There's a reason that Cybertrucks get stuck in the mud... it's that exciting new mediocre skunkworks engineering process. The "old" Ford can always rescue them from that, and polish the turd a bit.

The skunkworks strength is it doesn't have to "follow the rules" of the company. No waiting for a particular VP to take two weeks to decide on a product feature, etc. Just do it.

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[Jimrpa]

This post is closer to reality.

CE1, CE2, TE1, TE2... there is lots of overlap. Look at Mach-E and Lightning... there is fundamentally little difference between the powertrains (Mach-E even uses the same RDU as Lightning now), and Sync 4 is not hugely different between the two vehicles. The same will happen with the CE* and TE* platforms.

To say CE2 is dead is a misnomer. It's just not a priority. If CE1 is first in line, it's a really small jump to CE2.

CE1 vehicles will come from another skunkworks, not the mainline Ford development system. The "new way" of designing vehicles is just a lesser version of the old way, minus the majority of the bureaucracy. The new team does have some Tesla ex-pats, but you are giving the Tesla folks way too much credit. There's a reason that Cybertrucks get stuck in the mud... it's that exciting new mediocre skunkworks engineering process. The "old" Ford can always rescue them from that, and polish the turd a bit.

The skunkworks strength is it doesn't have to "follow the rules" of the company. No waiting for a particular VP to take two weeks to decide on a product feature, etc. Just do it.

Thanks for the clarification! This really helps! Now for the dumb questions:
- what is an RDU? I’m guessing “rear drive unit”?
- what are CE1, CE2. TE1 and TE2? From context, I’m guessing “CE1” is the platform the current generation Mustang Mach-E is based on? Are the T platforms trucks? If so, is TE1 the Lightning?

bonus question: since Expedition/Navigator are nothing more than a 4 door F-150 with a cap and a 3rd row, why hasn’t Ford just cranked out an Expedition/Navigator Lightning? Seems like a quick way to make lots of incremental money?

 

[silverelan]

This post is closer to reality.

CE1, CE2, TE1, TE2... there is lots of overlap. Look at Mach-E and Lightning... there is fundamentally little difference between the powertrains (Mach-E even uses the same RDU as Lightning now), and Sync 4 is not hugely different between the two vehicles. The same will happen with the CE* and TE* platforms.

To say CE2 is dead is a misnomer. It's just not a priority. If CE1 is first in line, it's a really small jump to CE2.

CE1 vehicles will come from another skunkworks, not the mainline Ford development system. The "new way" of designing vehicles is just a lesser version of the old way, minus the majority of the bureaucracy. The new team does have some Tesla ex-pats, but you are giving the Tesla folks way too much credit. There's a reason that Cybertrucks get stuck in the mud... it's that exciting new mediocre skunkworks engineering process. The "old" Ford can always rescue them from that, and polish the turd a bit.

The skunkworks strength is it doesn't have to "follow the rules" of the company. No waiting for a particular VP to take two weeks to decide on a product feature, etc. Just do it.

Glad to hear that perhaps the reports of Gen 2 are greatly exaggerated.

My neighbor is a 2x former Tesla owner and now has an ID4 and EV6. He rented an MME GT for a work project and now keeps asking me if I have any deets on the next gen MME because that’s the car he thinks Ford will absolutely nail and he wants it in his garage.

 

[jgillmer]

Not relevant to the conversation, but I'm having a hard time getting over this photograph. I mean, who thought that pain job was a good idea? Is the Pinto able to go so fast in reverse that flames come shooting out the back end? Did Elon launch it into space and it is using the rear hatch as a heat shield for re-entry? Or is is just a warning to not rear end it, because the tailpipe can get jammed into the gas tank and make the whole thing explode?

Now back to your regularly scheduled argument discussion.

it's making fun of the Pinto's reputation for the rear motor catching fire in accidents (hence backward flames). I like that cat owning that POS with pride and a sense of humor!

 

[DustyShades]

Yep! im planning on selling my mme in the next year for a Rivian R1s. I kind of gave up on Ford recently as they seem to have left their loyal, early adopters in the dust for bc 1.3. Im not going to let them keep lying to my face and taking my money. Not to mention their service departments and dealers suck so bad!

Honestly, I own both and I don’t have many complaints about either car. But you should go take a spin on the Rivian forums for a week. People complain just as much over there about Rivian’s software support and features that were promised that haven’t been released yet.

In my opinion, the entitled whining is pretty exhausting on both forums

 

[MachE1977]

Such an interesting vehicle.
I haven't been around here very long. About 6 months.
But it's amazing to me that the same vehicle spurs such contradicting comments, especially from owners that have had a Mach-E far longer than myself.

I have read multiple times "this has been the best car I have ever owned"

And although I haven't owned mine long enough for the statement to yet apply to me, I already can say that it feels like possibly the best put together car I have ever owned. And that's high praise from me considering the bar I have to compare to is a certain German make that is still very tight at 19 years old.

But this same car is declared a piece of junk and the biggest regret by others who own one.

I can see why others will say the “best car I’ve ever owned” it rivers fantastic, great exterior design and it’s different. But you can’t deny that the lack of software updates or just new features makes it seem outdated… unlike the leader in EV’s. Their software and update are fantastic but their car design is stale and old.

A collaboration is in order.

 

[tuminatr]

Nothing in their recent performance shows me Ford is capable of achieving this goal. Or even coming close.

I don't agree, the 2024 MME shows they are capable of learning and adapting quickly. This is new for Ford they typically won't do as significant mid cycle refresh as they did. Many glass is half empty, grass is greener folks will disagree

The MME and Lightning were beta products and we are the testers. Data is being gathered and when they make a designed from the ground up to be EV it will be competitive.

I suspect we will see the team will be bringing many components/ modules / wiring in house manufacturing and design. In the 2024 there is a glimmer of this in house charger, in house rear motor but more is needed.

 

[Snakebitten]

I can see why others will say the “best car I’ve ever owned” it rivers fantastic, great exterior design and it’s different. But you can’t deny that the lack of software updates or just new features makes it seem outdated… unlike the leader in EV’s. Their software and update are fantastic but their car design is stale and old.

A collaboration is in order.

Sure, by our insane modern standards, you might say that the Mach-E is outdated.

But I gotta tell ya, at near 70, calling any EV currently in production outdated is strange. Most didn't even exist when my 2017 Ford Transit family van was brought home. Or my previous 2018 F150 was brand new.

95% of folks I know have yet to even ride in an EV. ?

Last Sunday after church, I had just gotten into the Mach-E and was fixing to back out. An elderly lady (younger than myself, of course) approached my window and I could tell she wanted to say something. I rolled down the window and she asked "is this the new Mustang?" ?

I ended up getting out and opening the Frunk, trunk, doors.... Letting her sit in it, and answering all the questions she continued to have as she pondered an electric car for the first time ever. I think we both truly enjoyed the exchange, as did my 6 year old granddaughter, who is the person who actually talked Pawpaw into buying the Mach-E on an impulse 6 months ago. (another story)

So in that context, do you see how strange it might seem for me to tell that sweet lady that she really shouldn't be all that impressed with the car because it's outdated?

We live in remarkable times.

 

[phil]

I don't agree, the 2024 MME shows they are capable of learning and adapting quickly.

They can learn. They can adapt. What they cannot do is make a profitable EV.

The 2024 MME - just like the 2021 MME - is losing Ford a lot of money.

 

[tuminatr]

They can learn. They can adapt. What they cannot do is make a profitable EV.

The 2024 MME - just like the 2021 MME - is losing Ford a lot of money.

It's very normal in business for a first gen product to loose money. To be fair the market radically changed in the last 3 years. The MME is selling for as much as 20k+ less than was forecast NO ONE suspected this would happen.

The sticker price on my 2021 GTPE was over 70k even with today's crazy inflation you can buy a similarly equipped 2024 MME GT for $53k and currently $9k additional discounts. So $44k vs $70k = $26,000 less or about 1/3 less WOW

Of course they are not profitable

The 2024 model year changes prove they are capable of increasing efficiency & cutting costs. It also shows that their strategy of in house components works. Now with their next model expand on this and you could have a vehicle that is profitable from day one.

 

[Billyk24]

I can see why others will say the “best car I’ve ever owned” it rivers fantastic, great exterior design and it’s different. But you can’t deny that the lack of software updates or just new features makes it seem outdated… unlike the leader in EV’s. Their software and update are fantastic but their car design is stale and old.

A collaboration is in order.

We had actual Tesla owners on this forum in 2019/2020 stating Tesla beta software fixes for beta software.

 

[phil]

The 2024 model year changes prove they are capable of increasing efficiency & cutting costs.

Do model year changes prove any of that? I mean, we know Ford cut prices. Cutting prices is easy. Did Ford really cut costs much, or at all? How? New labor contracts at reduced wages? Revolutionary new manufacturing processes - at the same old Mexican factory they used last year? I think you'd have to get pretty deep into the Company's internal cost accounting and financial projections to see any efficiency gains, if they even exist.

Let's say they did manage to squeeze a few bucks out of current MME production costs. Tweaking an existing model is one thing. Building the "world's most efficient" EV platform is another matter entirely. I wish Ford luck, I hope they succeed. But I see no basis to expect such a spectacular outcome.

 

[Kamuelaflyer]

But you can’t deny that the lack of software updates or just new features makes it seem outdated… unlike the leader in EV’s.

Of course I can deny that.

Have the OTA rollouts been less than ideal? Yes of course. It’s even been bad upon occasion. The idea that the software makes it seem outdated though is a subjective standard and will lead to different conclusions. I don’t find it feeling outdated or archaic at all. You and others might. That’s all quite ok.

I think we can both hope that OTA things do get better after the BlueCruise 1.3 millstone is removed. Here’s hoping anyway.

 

[Sikkun]

But you can’t deny that the lack of software updates or just new features makes it seem outdated

I have a car that has self driven me thousands of miles….not really sure what update people are wanting. But nothing about my Mach E seems outdated. Still seems futuristic compared to my last Mustang.

 

[tuminatr]

Do model year changes prove any of that? I mean, we know Ford cut prices. Cutting prices is easy. Did Ford really cut costs much, or at all? How? New labor contracts at reduced wages? Revolutionary new manufacturing processes - at the same old Mexican factory they used last year? I think you'd have to get pretty deep into the Company's internal cost accounting and financial projections to see any efficiency gains, if they even exist.

Let's say they did manage to squeeze a few bucks out of current MME production costs. Tweaking an existing model is one thing. Building the "world's most efficient" EV platform is another matter entirely. I wish Ford luck, I hope they succeed. But I see no basis to expect such a spectacular outcome.

This was discussed in several interviews with Donna Dixon. She said by using an in house rear motor that is shared with the Lightning they have reduced costs. The stated that the motor and other cost savings measure is what allowed them to lower the MSRP. She also talked about the new charger being in house and that reduced costs and was one of the key components to reduce charging times.

I suspect the nature of the MME and Lightning is they will never be profitable. At least not the way the market is now.

As for the claim that they are going to be the most efficient, I do not think that's accurate. I did see a interview with Farley where he said class leading but never where he said Ford would make the most efficient EV ever.

Please post where the article/ interview where you read the claim that Ford would make the most efficient EV ever.

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