Tesla Slashes Prices

[Mach1E]

Can't cherry pick data if the data doesn't exist. That's the whole point. No one is arguing that newer cars with newer tech is less safe then older cars. We're arguing about the claim that Tesla is cherry picking the data.

Even IF the data “didn’t exist,” they’re making an unfair comparison plain and simple.

The tin foil hat goes to the person who thinks the NHTSA doesn’t know how many crashes happen on the highway.


They do.

They also know the age, gender, and race of the drivers.

They don’t publish that data publicly either.

That doesn’t mean the data doesn’t exist. Just means you have to contact them directly. I posted their contact info above if you or Tesla are curious.

But, let’s follow your tin foil conspiracy down the rabbit hole.

Answer me this:

How do they know how many crashes were rural or urban as well as that they were on straight or curvy streets……… without knowing if they happened on a highway or not??

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[theduke]

Even IF the data “didn’t exist,” they’re making an unfair comparison plain and simple.

The tin foil hat goes to the person who thinks the NHTSA doesn’t know how many crashes happen on the highway.


They do.

They also know the age, gender, and race of the drivers.

They don’t publish that data publicly either.

That doesn’t mean the data doesn’t exist. Just means you have to contact them directly. I posted their contact info above if you or Tesla are curious.

But, let’s follow your tin foil conspiracy down the rabbit hole.

Answer me this:

How do they know how many crashes were rural or urban as well as that they were on straight or curvy streets……… without knowing if they happened on a highway or not??

Who is "they"? NHTSA? Because Tesla knows this info from their fleet. Every, and I mean EVERY, crash has the video and GPS uploaded to Tesla within minutes of it occurring. They know how many and which airbags deployed, what the weight was on the seat sensors at the time, speed, if the brakes or accelerator was applied and by how much, tire pressure . . . pretty much everything. 3rd party hackers have verified this, Tesla knows everything about the accidents that occur in their fleet.

 

[Mach1E]

Who is "they"? NHTSA? Because Tesla knows this info from their fleet. Every, and I mean EVERY, crash has the video and GPS uploaded to Tesla within minutes of it occurring. They know how many and which airbags deployed, what the weight was on the seat sensors at the time, speed, if the brakes or accelerator was applied and by how much, tire pressure . . . pretty much everything. 3rd party hackers have verified this, Tesla knows everything about the accidents that occur in their fleet.

They is the NHTSA.

I thought this was clear: “
The tin foil hat goes to the person who thinks the NHTSA doesn’t know how many crashes happen on the highway.


They do.”

 

[Ghost Ryder]

If they chose to release some info but not all that is cherry picking. Its kinda worse than releasing no info.

And I bring up the 330 mile range because it seems every other EV uses the other measure, and gets more than advertised, and every pro post you see for Tesla says, "the range for the money" so Tesla knowingly misleading their buyers is the issue, again, cherry picking their data.

What other info would you like Tesla to release? They release info on accidents per mile traveled with AP on and AP off.

Most other EVs do not get more miles than advertised. But the real world discrepancy is not as bad as Tesla. I can't fault Tesla for advertising an EPA verified standard. Europe uses a different standard which is also off when compare to real world range. yet all manufacturers list that number in Europe. "range for the money" What does that mean? Tesla 3 and Y are now some of the cheapest EVs out there. Are we talking about miles/dollar MSRP now? Haven't seen it break down like that before.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

They is the NHTSA.

I thought this was clear: “
The tin foil hat goes to the person who thinks the NHTSA doesn’t know how many crashes happen on the highway.


They do.”

Ok, let's assume they have the data, but since no one can get it, it might as well doesn't exist.

The way I see it, if the data was there and really damaging to Tesla, then there are plenty of people including tesla's competitors that would gleefully point it out. But so far, there are no click bait articles that says otherwise, including the NYT, then I'm going with that data does not exist, or that the NHTSA has not released it.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Who is "they"? NHTSA? Because Tesla knows this info from their fleet. Every, and I mean EVERY, crash has the video and GPS uploaded to Tesla within minutes of it occurring. They know how many and which airbags deployed, what the weight was on the seat sensors at the time, speed, if the brakes or accelerator was applied and by how much, tire pressure . . . pretty much everything. 3rd party hackers have verified this, Tesla knows everything about the accidents that occur in their fleet.

Yes, and Tesla release data on accidents per miles traveled with AP on and AP off.

https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport

the point is to compare it to other non tesla cars while traveling on the HWY. Which tesla doesn't have the data.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Even IF the data “didn’t exist,” they’re making an unfair comparison plain and simple.

The tin foil hat goes to the person who thinks the NHTSA doesn’t know how many crashes happen on the highway.


They do.

They also know the age, gender, and race of the drivers.

They don’t publish that data publicly either.

That doesn’t mean the data doesn’t exist. Just means you have to contact them directly. I posted their contact info above if you or Tesla are curious.

But, let’s follow your tin foil conspiracy down the rabbit hole.

Answer me this:

How do they know how many crashes were rural or urban as well as that they were on straight or curvy streets……… without knowing if they happened on a highway or not??

I'm not saying the NHTSA doesn't have the RAW data, but rather its not broken down into HWY vs street.

 

[MacherAWD]

What other info would you like Tesla to release? They release info on accidents per mile traveled with AP on and AP off.

Most other EVs do not get more miles than advertised. But the real world discrepancy is not as bad as Tesla. I can't fault Tesla for advertising an EPA verified standard. Europe uses a different standard which is also off when compare to real world range. yet all manufacturers list that number in Europe. "range for the money" What does that mean? Tesla 3 and Y are now some of the cheapest EVs out there. Are we talking about miles/dollar MSRP now? Haven't seen it break down like that before.

Tesla intentionally misleads its owners, and the population on everything. They operate as a software company, create hype and buzz to boost the stock price. The masses seem to generally by into the hype and then echo it all over the internet, or in person when you talk to them.

The range is an example, yes people say "a 330 mile EV for that price, thats 100miles more than SR MME" yet in reality it has been proven to be much close in range. FSD and Auto Pilot is another, everyone says "Tesla is better" yet it has also been proven to not be the case. Independent bodies rank it lower. Another example is "the software" someone just yesterday on a Bolt Forum was saying "I think I have to go Tesla, the integrated charging into Nav is so nice" I had to point out that it is essentially industry standard now.

You may argue this is just people who need to do more research, but it is intentionally the way Tesla chooses to market. Legacy makers arent pumping the same hype, they rely on traditional advertising which seems less effective, but at least it is not as blatantly mis-leading. Honestly it is akin to Foxnews and other extreme new sources, you have to hold them accountable for the sheeple they create.

All that said Tesla creates a decent car, but in my opinion it is more of a Hyundai of EVs (the new Elantra N for example), they market it as better and cheaper than more expensive cars, but in the end ICE drivers recognize it is still a hyundai, and continue to shop other cars.
<end rant>

 

[Mach1E]

I'm not saying the NHTSA doesn't have the RAW data, but rather its not broken down into HWY vs street.

It could be, if they contacted the NHTSA to get it.

But they won’t. Why? Because it wouldn’t look as good.

If the point is to show that Tesla autopilot is superior, the ONLY comparison necessary is the one posted above that has “autopilot on vs off” on the highway.

As soon as they make the unfair comparison to “every other car on every street,” it becomes misleading.

If the data doesn’t exist or isn’t obtainable, they shouldn’t make the comparison.

Would it be misleading for me to post my personal basketball free throw stats, compared them to “the average American,” then conclude “I’m the best basketball player in my town!”?

My excuse- I can’t find the free throw stats for my town posted online. Therefore I must be the best if I’m better than the average American……

To be fair, this is the same marketing nonsense that most companies do. They fudge or cherry pick whatever stat makes them look the best. And they absolutely NEVER advertise anything that doesn’t.

If there was a legit study that showed Bluecruise is Supercruise having 8% less crashes per mile, would Tesla advertise a 3rd place finish?

 

[Pushrods&Capacitors]

Tesla intentionally misleads its owners, and the population on everything. They operate as a software company, create hype and buzz to boost the stock price. The masses seem to generally by into the hype and then echo it all over the internet, or in person when you talk to them.

The range is an example, yes people say "a 330 mile EV for that price, thats 100miles more than SR MME" yet in reality it has been proven to be much close in range. FSD and Auto Pilot is another, everyone says "Tesla is better" yet it has also been proven to not be the case. Independent bodies rank it lower. Another example is "the software" someone just yesterday on a Bolt Forum was saying "I think I have to go Tesla, the integrated charging into Nav is so nice" I had to point out that it is essentially industry standard now.

You may argue this is just people who need to do more research, but it is intentionally the way Tesla chooses to market. Legacy makers arent pumping the same hype, they rely on traditional advertising which seems less effective, but at least it is not as blatantly mis-leading. Honestly it is akin to Foxnews and other extreme new sources, you have to hold them accountable for the sheeple they create.

All that said Tesla creates a decent car, but in my opinion it is more of a Hyundai of EVs (the new Elantra N for example), they market it as better and cheaper than more expensive cars, but in the end ICE drivers recognize it is still a hyundai, and continue to shop other cars.
<end rant>

I agree with you up to the Elantra N part, that is a great little sports sedan and easily competes with cars costing $5-10K more. And yes, I’ve actually test driven it, manual and automatic. It’s a fookin hoot.

 

[MacherAWD]

I agree with you up to the Elantra N part, that is a great little sports sedan and easily competes with cars costing $5-10K more. And yes, I’ve actually test driven it, manual and automatic. It’s a fookin hoot.

oh I am sure it is, I have owned a hyundai and told friends to buy them, I just meant even though that car exists people still buy BMW M3s, S4s, WRX, and a whole host of others, in the EV space many have blinders on.

 

[Mach1E]

oh I am sure it is, I have owned a hyundai and told friends to buy them, I just meant even though that car exists people still buy BMW M3s, S4s, WRX, and a whole host of others, in the EV space many have blinders on.

I don’t know if “blinders on” is the right analogy when the car in question is ugly. ?

 

[theduke]

It could be, if they contacted the NHTSA to get it.

But they won’t. Why? Because it wouldn’t look as good.

If the point is to show that Tesla autopilot is superior, the ONLY comparison necessary is the one posted above that has “autopilot on vs off” on the highway.

As soon as they make the unfair comparison to “every other car on every street,” it becomes misleading.

If the data doesn’t exist or isn’t obtainable, they shouldn’t make the comparison.

Would it be misleading for me to post my personal basketball free throw stats, compared them to “the average American,” then conclude “I’m the best basketball player in my town!”?

My excuse- I can’t find the free throw stats for my town posted online. Therefore I must be the best if I’m better than the average American……

To be fair, this is the same marketing nonsense that most companies do. They fudge or cherry pick whatever stat makes them look the best. And they absolutely NEVER advertise anything that doesn’t.

If there was a legit study that showed Bluecruise is Supercruise having 8% less crashes per mile, would Tesla advertise a 3rd place finish?

How do you know they didn't contact NHTSA for the data?

You are making an assumption and proposing it as fact, to support a narrative that you believe.


All we know is that Tesla has published this dataset, and it's essentially the only one out there. Until someone posts DATA to refute their dataset, it's the best there is. Bluecruise and Supercruise don't publish their data (and if I were a skeptic like you, I would ask - is that because their product is inferior and they don't want the data out there till they improve?). Tesla is confident enough in their data to publish it. Don't see that from anyone else currently.

 

[Ghost Ryder]

Tesla intentionally misleads its owners, and the population on everything. They operate as a software company, create hype and buzz to boost the stock price. The masses seem to generally by into the hype and then echo it all over the internet, or in person when you talk to them.

The range is an example, yes people say "a 330 mile EV for that price, thats 100miles more than SR MME" yet in reality it has been proven to be much close in range. FSD and Auto Pilot is another, everyone says "Tesla is better" yet it has also been proven to not be the case. Independent bodies rank it lower. Another example is "the software" someone just yesterday on a Bolt Forum was saying "I think I have to go Tesla, the integrated charging into Nav is so nice" I had to point out that it is essentially industry standard now.

You may argue this is just people who need to do more research, but it is intentionally the way Tesla chooses to market. Legacy makers arent pumping the same hype, they rely on traditional advertising which seems less effective, but at least it is not as blatantly mis-leading. Honestly it is akin to Foxnews and other extreme new sources, you have to hold them accountable for the sheeple they create.

All that said Tesla creates a decent car, but in my opinion it is more of a Hyundai of EVs (the new Elantra N for example), they market it as better and cheaper than more expensive cars, but in the end ICE drivers recognize it is still a hyundai, and continue to shop other cars.
<end rant>

1) regarding range, Tesla claim 330 miles based on verified EPA testing. How can you call that misleading? They didn't cheat like VW diesel scandal. Other manufacturers except for Porsche, also overstate their range compared to real world range if you're going to use that standard.

2) Please show me one test where FSD was compared to other commercially available autonomous system.

3) If you're talking about AP alone, then you're probably referring to the Consumer report article. But did you actually read the article vs just the headline? The most import criteria is capability and performance and Tesla scored a 9/10, only Mercedez beat it. And that's AP without FSD or Enhanced AP. I really don't know how how they gave Tesla a 5/10 on ease of use. All that is required is to tap the right stalk down twice. I'm not sure how it can be an simpler. Other criteria include keeping driver engaged. I don't want my car beeping at me all the time.

4) As far as charging map integration, Tesla still does it the best with preconditioning, listing how many stations are available in real time, the charge rate, etc. So I still think they do it the best.

5) Bringing up Fox news, now it make sense where your bias against tesla is coming from. You could of mention CNN or Washing Post and their settle lawsuit with Sandmann. If you want to talk about false narrative.

6) I'm all for more choices in EVs, So more is better. The Korean brands have nice interior, not sold on the exterior though.

 

[theduke]

3) If you're talking about AP alone, then you're probably referring to the Consumer report article. But did you actually read the article vs just the headline? The most import criteria is capability and performance and Tesla scored a 9/10, only Mercedez beat it. And that's AP without FSD or Enhanced AP. I really don't know how how they gave Tesla a 5/10 on ease of use. All that is required is to tap the right stalk down twice. I'm not sure how it can be an simpler. Other criteria include keeping driver engaged. I don't want my car beeping at me all the time.

The AP from that review is also the codebase from 2016. It's essentially been unchanged until about a month ago, when the FSD stack and AP stack were merged. I test drove a M3 Perf the other day and it had the latest software. AP on highway was incredibly good, I was shocked at how well it handled traffic, speed changes, and curves in the highway. Made me consider getting rid of one of my old 2013 Model S's (but those are paid for, can't beat that).

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