The GT never had a 5 second limit

[AKgrampy]

I am assuming you are talking about my previous posts but I just wanted you to please re-read my posts where I have stated many, many times that I was guessing along with stating, "take this with a grain of salt" just like you are suggesting of your posts. I do however feel confident that my guesses are accurate but when it comes right down to it, no one knows for sure on this thread and that is why I stated we need the Engineers that designed the limiter to tell us.

Now a little background. I used to Instruct Automotive Courses along with Small Engine Classes. While I realize that ICE and EV's differ in many ways, they are also the same when it comes to how parts fail many times.

Take batteries for example. The heat is what ruins the battery and not the cold weather like many people think. Computers are also prone to degrade at a faster rate if operating at high temps. That is why rooms that contain computers are many times quite cold. I would assume EV's fall into that camp.

Ironically, if we made the life of an ICE run longer by taking the heat away it would also run much more inefficiently. You need heat at the same time you are trying to take heat away similar to EV's. The efficiency goes down in the cold and goes up in the Summer but it is harder on the battery in warmer climates. Damn if you do, damn if you don't type thing.

So with all of the background of knowing how many parts fail due to heat, I am assuming the same must be true for this limiter on a GT. I am 99% sure on this but there may be an outlier that suggests differently. Why Ford would care about time or speed is beyond me but the name "5 second limiter" is just code for, don't overheat me or I will not last as long as you would like. That is why I think it should be stated as a heat limiter and not a time limiter. It limits heat and time is just used to simplify it to a round equation.

In any event, if I am coming across as being arrogant I apologize. I am just pointing out the things I would guess are happening and trying to see if anyone has any differing views and I am finding out that everybody doesn't know but seems to be agreeing with each other yet still debating. Now try to figure that one out.

I am not going to say this is the issue but am sharing a fact. We have a battery system that can provide 27MW for 15 min. The batteries started to underperform their warranty. The fast discharge was actually physically forcing the cathode and anode to separate and reducing the power of each cell. The company identified the issue and changed their manufacturing process and we received $7million worth of new batteries. Perhaps there is a physical issue with the cells in a Mach that they felt full power at greater than 5 seconds could cause. Not saying that is the case but heat may not be the only underlying issue. Enough speculating on my part.

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[DadzBoyz]

So this whole thread is about the Mach-E not having the 5 Second limit that Ford has said exists and they plan to update the software to make changes to.
Ummm. OK. Got it.

 

[Mach1E]

So this whole thread is about the Mach-E not having the 5 Second limit that Ford has said exists and they plan to update the software to make changes to.
Ummm. OK. Got it.

If you’re going by what Ford has said, they’re either completely mute on the subject or super vague and haven’t even remotely close to gone into detail on how the limits work.

But if you only read the title and not the thread then I could understand how you would post what you did.

But no, what you posted is not what the thread is about.

 

[DadzBoyz]

If you’re going by what Ford has said, they’re either completely mute on the subject or super vague and haven’t even remotely close to gone into detail on how the limits work.

First, I read through a lot of the thread, including a number of forum members arguing that there is a limit…. a time limit, even. (Don’t do it. Don’t name that cartoon. You’ll age yourself….and me. )

Ford may not have given the detail that you’re looking for, but I’m pretty sure Darren Palmer, of Ford, said something about this when he said:

“We do throttle after a certain period of time, um, the power to the wheels, so that's something we can control over the air and we are going to change that limit. We've done that on testing to make sure the vehicle lasts the way it is expected for the customers...”

That’s from his interview with Tom Moloughney. That thread can be found at the link below.
But, please make sure you take all of the time required to read each-and-every-single-post in that thread before you reply to my comment here or before you comment on that thread….

(See how silly that sounds?)

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...ull-power-acceleration-will-be-changed.29382/

 

[Mach1E]

First, I read through a lot of the thread, including a number of forum members arguing that there is a limit…. a time limit, even. (Don’t do it. Don’t name that cartoon. You’ll age yourself….and me. )

Ford may not have given the detail that you’re looking for, but I’m pretty sure Darren Palmer, of Ford, said something about this when he said:

“We do throttle after a certain period of time, um, the power to the wheels, so that's something we can control over the air and we are going to change that limit. We've done that on testing to make sure the vehicle lasts the way it is expected for the customers...”

That’s from his interview with Tom Moloughney. That thread can be found at the link below.
But, please make sure you take all of the time required to read each-and-every-single-post in that thread before you reply to my comment here or before you comment on that thread….

(See how silly that sounds?)

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...ull-power-acceleration-will-be-changed.29382/

You aren’t saying anything new. And again, you are missing the point of this thread. But that’s ok.

I’ll summarize what you’re referencing with this-

The specific limit you are referring to is not simply a 5 sec time limit.

It is a complex algorithm of discharge rate over time. And it’s one of many things that limit power on the GTs as seen by the grey bars.

The limit can show up at speed, temperature, SOC and after you floor it, 75% throttle etc.

Sometimes one of the limits kicks in after 5 seconds, other times it’s less or more depending one what you’re doing.

So the point of the thread? Calling it a “5 sec limit” is simplistic and not really accurate, so I believe it’s wrong to call it such.

What’s a little ironic about you posting the link to the other thread………. Go ahead and skip to the last page.

The discussion there and comments of mine and others are actually what made me start THIS thread.

 

[DadzBoyz]

You aren’t saying anything new. And again, you are missing the point of this thread. But that’s ok.

I’ll summarize what you’re referencing with this-

The specific limit you are referring to is not simply a 5 sec time limit.

It is a complex algorithm of discharge rate over time. And it’s one of many things that limit power on the GTs as seen by the grey bars.

The limit can show up at speed, temperature, SOC and after you floor it, 75% throttle etc.

Sometimes one of the limits kicks in after 5 seconds, other times it’s less or more depending one what you’re doing.

So the point of the thread? Calling it a “5 sec limit” is simplistic and not really accurate, so I believe it’s wrong to call it such.

What’s a little ironic about you posting the link to the other thread………. Go ahead and skip to the last page.

The discussion there and comments of mine and others are actually what made me start THIS thread.

I know all of that before and I read all of that in this thread.
I guess I thought that:

“The GT never had a 5 second limit”​

Was both wrong a bit of a click bait title because there is a time limit, among other factors.
I also think that your statement…

“If you’re going by what Ford has said, they’re either completely mute on the subject or super vague and haven’t even remotely close to gone into detail on how the limits work.”

…was a bit disingenuous because, while they may not have published the algorithm, they also don’t publish ECM, and other module controlled limitations and algorithms for their ICE cars. They don’t tell you exactly at what air temperature, engine temperature, at what altitude, and what RPM that any of their engines will de-power (which they do) or even blow. They don’t publish the algorithm used to calculate when ESC kicks in or every possible situation that ABS will activate. There’s a lot they don’t publish algorithmic detail on, whether ICE or EV.
They also have not been mute on the 5 second limit that the cars have that your thread title claims they “never had”. In fact, Darren Palmer referenced the limit recently, their testing, and plans to make updates.

I understand that you’d like to know more, but I think your line of thinking is flawed.

 

[Mach1E]

I know all of that before and I read all of that in this thread.
I guess I thought that:

“The GT never had a 5 second limit”​

Was both wrong a bit of a click bait title because there is a time limit, among other factors.
I also think that your statement…

…was a bit disingenuous because, while they may not have published the algorithm, they also don’t publish ECM, and other module controlled limitations and algorithms for their ICE cars. They don’t tell you exactly at what air temperature, engine temperature, at what altitude, and what RPM that any of their engines will de-power (which they do) or even blow. They don’t publish the algorithm used to calculate when ESC kicks in or every possible situation that ABS will activate. There’s a lot they don’t publish algorithmic detail on, whether ICE or EV.
They also have not been mute on the 5 second limit that the cars have that your thread title claims they “never had”. In fact, Darren Palmer referenced the limit recently, their testing, and plans to make updates.

I understand that you’d like to know more, but I think your line of thinking is flawed.

I agree, it is a click bait title, even said so on page 1, post 15.

Yup, Darren references a limit. But again, it’s not 5 seconds, it’s way more complicated than that.

But if you’re just stuck on the headline, here is why it’s true:

We never get a full 5 seconds on full power.

Even in the best conditions, you hit 72 mph and the grey bars start before 5 seconds is up. (Concept covered in post 1).

This is nothing new for Ford. Did you know that most years the Mustang 5.0 was actually a 4.9?

 

[eman88]

First, I read through a lot of the thread, including a number of forum members arguing that there is a limit…. a time limit, even. (Don’t do it. Don’t name that cartoon. You’ll age yourself….and me. )

Ford may not have given the detail that you’re looking for, but I’m pretty sure Darren Palmer, of Ford, said something about this when he said:

“We do throttle after a certain period of time, um, the power to the wheels, so that's something we can control over the air and we are going to change that limit. We've done that on testing to make sure the vehicle lasts the way it is expected for the customers...”

That’s from his interview with Tom Moloughney. That thread can be found at the link below.
But, please make sure you take all of the time required to read each-and-every-single-post in that thread before you reply to my comment here or before you comment on that thread….

(See how silly that sounds?)

https://www.macheforum.com/site/thr...ull-power-acceleration-will-be-changed.29382/

Snagglepuss - `even'

 

[DadzBoyz]

This is nothing new for Ford. Did you know that most years the Mustang 5.0 was actually a 4.9?

Yeah. It was a 302. I had an ‘89 LX 5.0.

 

[DR.J56]

Yeah. It was a 302. I had an ‘89 LX 5.0.

 

[DadzBoyz]

Alright, STOP. Collaborate and listen.....

 

[Bulle2004]

If you want to know where the information might come from, please check the press release of Ford from July 9th, 2021: https://mustang-mach-e.fordpresskits.com/?p=HomeGT.
Footnote 6 in the English version undoubtedly states the power limit of 5 seconds.

Furthermore, in the to German translated version of the same document, Ford explains at footnote * that peak performance is only available within a bucket of 15 seconds.

Surprisingly, they mixed up power and torque: "Diese Spitzenleistung von 860 Nm wird für 5 Sekunden gehalten". In English: This peak power of 860 Nm is maintained for 5 seconds.

I hope this brings clarity into this topic.

 

[Mach1E]

If you want to know where the information might come from, please check the press release of Ford from July 9th, 2021: https://mustang-mach-e.fordpresskits.com/?p=HomeGT.
Footnote 6 in the English version undoubtedly states the power limit of 5 seconds.

Furthermore, in the to German translated version of the same document, Ford explains at footnote * that peak performance is only available within a bucket of 15 seconds.

Surprisingly, they mixed up power and torque: "Diese Spitzenleistung von 860 Nm wird für 5 Sekunden gehalten". In English: This peak power of 860 Nm is maintained for 5 seconds.

I hope this brings clarity into this topic.

Unfortunately it doesn’t

All it does is cover the disclaimer needed for European markets where a power limit has to be disclosed.

But as was discussed very thoroughly, time is only part of the limit. It’s way more complicated than the disclaimer makes it seem.

Ford did do a wonderful job hiding that document and disclaimer though. No one here found it until way after the first Mach E GTs were delivered here.

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