Why Can't The Mach-E GT Do This?

[Mach1E]

Not true, around 2000 ICE manufacturers began implementing what is called torque management, it will reduce power via throttle position, valve timing, ignition timing etc. Every high performance ICE car has it now.

TQ management is also something entirely different. Cuts tq on automatic cars to help be easy on the transmission.

But you still get “100% throttle.”

Any data logger will show 100% throttle even if you don’t reduce tq management.

But none of this really matters. It’s not even remotely comparable to the GT losing 180hp or so after 5 seconds.

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[Pushrods&Capacitors]

Not true, around 2000 ICE manufacturers began implementing what is called torque management, it will reduce power via throttle position, valve timing, ignition timing etc. Every high performance ICE car has it now.

Torque management was introduced to protect driveline parts for warranty claims. And it worked. It does not stop an ICE’s rotating assembly from spinning at some predetermined rpm. It is mainly used at WOT shift points to momentarily reduce power/torque, again, to protect driveline parts.

I’ve owned 5 different LS-1/3 equipped GM cars and am familiar with dialing down/out torque management via tuning.

 

[Mach1E]

Torque management was introduced to protect driveline parts for warranty claims. And it worked. It does not stop an ICE’s rotating assembly from spinning at some predetermined rpm. It is mainly used at WOT shift points to momentarily reduce power/torque, again, to protect driveline parts.

I’ve owned 5 different LS-1/3 equipped GM cars and am familiar with dialing down/out torque management via tuning.

You’ve got me beat, I only owned 2 LSX vehicles, but I did log over 100 tunes on HPtuners back on my 02 Trans Am.

 

[dkmatter]

TQ management is also something entirely different. Cuts tq on automatic cars to help be easy on the transmission.

But you still get “100% throttle.”

Any data logger will show 100% throttle even if you don’t reduce tq management.

But none of this really matters. It’s not even remotely comparable to the GT losing 180hp or so after 5 seconds.

There was a big discussion on corvette forum about this, throttle in first gear was being reduced because of tq management, it was data logged. Chevrolet got tired of broken driveline warranty claims.

 

[Scooby24]

Torque management was introduced to protect driveline parts for warranty claims. And it worked. It does not stop an ICE’s rotating assembly from spinning at some predetermined rpm. It is mainly used at WOT shift points to momentarily reduce power/torque, again, to protect driveline parts.

I’ve owned 5 different LS-1/3 equipped GM cars and am familiar with dialing down/out torque management via tuning.

Requested Torque and torque tables are going to be in play all the time. In drive by wire your torque output is going to be dependent upon many different variable that come into play including Density altitude, knock feedback, coolant temps, current gear, etc. It's not the same as a 5 second power limit but it's a valid argument to bring up torque management as some limitations in you actually making advertised power.

If you remove yourself from familiarity with an ICE an imagine you are learning about it all for the first time you'd probably be very confused with all the things you might not have known.

You mean you only make peak power at a certain RPM, in a certain gear, after the vehicle's been driven long enough to warm up, and the power you make depends on where you live and your elevation, which fuel you use, and you lose power/efficiency every winter due to fuel additives?

 

[Pushrods&Capacitors]

You’ve got me beat, I only owned 2 LSX vehicles, but I did log over 100 tunes on HPtuners back on my 02 Trans Am.

Ha. My ‘02 was a Formula, A4 w/3.23s. Went 12.6@112 with just the tune, lid, Z06 maf housing and SLP loudmouth. And no Torque Management ?. 13.3@107 totally stock.

 

[Pushrods&Capacitors]

Requested Torque and torque tables are going to be in play all the time. In drive by wire your torque output is going to be dependent upon many different variable that come into play including Density altitude, knock feedback, coolant temps, current gear, etc. It's not the same as a 5 second power limit but it's a valid argument to bring up torque management as some limitations in you actually making advertised power.



If you remove yourself from familiarity with an ICE an imagine you are learning about it all for the first time you'd probably be very confused with all the things you might not have known.

You mean you only make peak power at a certain RPM, in a certain gear, after the vehicle's been driven long enough to warm up, and the power you make depends on where you live and your elevation, which fuel you use, and you lose power/efficiency every winter due to fuel additives?

I know. I’m stopping at that.

 

[Scooby24]

There was a big discussion on corvette forum about this, throttle in first gear was being reduced because of tq management, it was data logged. Chevrolet got tired of broken driveline warranty claims.

Can't speak to corvettes but my STI tunes were gear limited initially. These are my screen shots from a decade ago as I was tuning my '11 STI, so I don't have all the tables listed but based on requested torque targets, there were torque limits based on which drive mode you were in, as well as which gear. You wouldn't ever get full requested torque in first gear on the stock tune.

 

[Mach1E]

Requested Torque and torque tables are going to be in play all the time. In drive by wire your torque output is going to be dependent upon many different variable that come into play including Density altitude, knock feedback, coolant temps, current gear, etc. It's not the same as a 5 second power limit but it's a valid argument to bring up torque management as some limitations in you actually making advertised power.

If you remove yourself from familiarity with an ICE an imagine you are learning about it all for the first time you'd probably be very confused with all the things you might not have known.

You mean you only make peak power at a certain RPM, in a certain gear, after the vehicle's been driven long enough to warm up, and the power you make depends on where you live and your elevation, which fuel you use, and you lose power/efficiency every winter due to fuel additives?

That’s fair, but it still points out how none of the things you bring up make you lose 180hp.

When it comes to making power or even efficiency, seems like the electric cars have just as many or maybe even more/larger issues than ICE.

40% range loss in winter? 180hp loss after 5 seconds? Significant power loss any time less than 70% charge? Significant power loss if it’s too hot or too cold?

When it comes to delivering consistent power and efficiency, ICE seems to still have a serious edge.

Sure, ICE isn’t making as much power when the DA isn’t good, but the difference isn’t even remotely as extreme as what we are seeing.

 

[Scooby24]

That’s fair, but it still points out how none of the things you bring up make you lose 180hp.

When it comes to making power or even efficiency, seems like the electric cars have just as many or maybe even more/larger issues than ICE.

40% range loss in winter? 180hp loss after 5 seconds? Significant power loss any time less than 70% charge? Significant power loss if it’s too hot or too cold?

When it comes to delivering consistent power and efficiency, ICE seems to still have a serious edge.

Sure, ICE isn’t making as much power when the DA isn’t good, but the difference isn’t even remotely as extreme as what we are seeing.

You're right..the scale of the limitations definitely favor the ICE...but this is also the very first performance EV Ford has ever made. I tempered my expectations early on that we would be beta testing a new platform and I think it's important to go into this purchase understanding that there's going to be room for improvement and not all of it is going to be optimizing the software.

 

[EELinneman]

Amen. Also, where is the backlash at Tesla for claiming 200mph for the S Plaid when it’s currently limited to 163 or whatever because it’s an unstable mess above that speed? I’ve only seen a few references to this. I believe Thomas and James talked about in the Throttle House Plaid test.

I think you are referring to this:
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a38423992/2021-tesla-model-s-plaid-by-the-numbers/

It's difficult to make a car stable and usable at those speeds. Not only do you need the top end horsepower, but the aero forces are significant and the margins for errors are thinning quite a bit. Looking at history, a lot of people tried and died to get to that speed. I just don't think that the plaid was designed to be usable at 200 mph. For shits and giggles, look for stories of people who wrecked Vipers within the first few weeks they got them as they wanted to swap ends until Dodge got some better controls implemented. Musk will get a usable 200 mph car. Eventually.

 

[jlauro]

Why is the GT limited to only 5 seconds peak power, it's obvious that not all EV's have this limitation, what gives?

Skimmed through 2 pages and seen mostly excuses and irrelevant reasons. Basically it is this:

Price of the Plaid... $130,000 - lasts under 10 seconds
Price of GT PE... $68,000 - lasts 5 seconds

You get what you pay for.

 

[DR.J56]

Skimmed through 2 pages and seen mostly excuses and irrelevant reasons. Basically it is this:

Price of the Plaid... $130,000 - lasts under 10 seconds
Price of GT PE... $68,000 - lasts 5 seconds

You get what you pay for.

Exactly, Tesla can do it, Ford can’t.

 

[Pushrods&Capacitors]

I think you are referring to this:
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/a38423992/2021-tesla-model-s-plaid-by-the-numbers/

It's difficult to make a car stable and usable at those speeds. Not only do you need the top end horsepower, but the aero forces are significant and the margins for errors are thinning quite a bit. Looking at history, a lot of people tried and died to get to that speed. I just don't think that the plaid was designed to be usable at 200 mph. For shits and giggles, look for stories of people who wrecked Vipers within the first few weeks they got them as they wanted to swap ends until Dodge got some better controls implemented. Musk will get a usable 200 mph car. Eventually.

Yep. But because Elon mandated that they take an existing S and modify it, then stated it needed to go 200mph, here we are. It can’t. And I suspect battery/motor issues play into it greatly as well. 200mph is tough to do just considering balancing aero drag with the need for downforce/anti-lift. Throw in the battery discharge issue and motor rpm range and I doubt a Plaid will do 200 in a verifiable 2-way avg test that would signify it's a real thing.

Porsche caps the hottest Taycans at 155mph for a reason, and they have that higher efficiency 2nd gear helping tremendously at high speed.

 

[SWO]

TQ management is also something entirely different. Cuts tq on automatic cars to help be easy on the transmission.

But you still get “100% throttle.”

Any data logger will show 100% throttle even if you don’t reduce tq management.

But none of this really matters. It’s not even remotely comparable to the GT losing 180hp or so after 5 seconds.

Correct, and you are still getting advertised power

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