Why aren't Ford dealers required to have fast chargers?

[Badger_Prof]

There absolutely is a business case. I'm not saying they should be free but if you don't have chargers in non-urban areas why would 40% of Americans ever buy EV's. That argument makes no sense.

I do not totally disagree with you and I understand this could be, in part, a chicken or egg problem. However, at the moment it appears there are relatively few sales in the charging desert (because of lack of chargers and other factors?). At the same time, there seems to be an excess of orders overall (i.e., Mach-E demand exceeds Mach-E supply). Directly supporting or not supporting charging infrastructure in areas of low demand for the EVs will probably not have much impact on short term overall sales--the sales may disproportionately go to areas where there is good charging infrastructure but the sales will still be made. By the time supply exceeds demand, it is likely that the current deserts will be adequately populated with charging oases. Is this fair? It depends on how you define fair and whether it is the job of Ford or Ford dealers to lose money short term by building expensive infrastructure that will likely be redundant in a few years. As noted by others, there actually are DC chargers available for your route albeit at a pretty skimpy level.

If you want to build a business case, identify the profit per Mach-E sold by a rural Mach-E dealer and then calculate how many would need to be sold to break even (i.e., make zero profit) on a $100,000 DC charger/installation. This, of course, would not really be a break even case, it would be a loss of 100% of profit from the sales of Mach-Es. For a solid business case, you would need to estimate the number of incremental Mach-E sales that would be realized because a dealer installed a DC charger. That $100,000 would need to be covered by the number of incremental sales. In your model, could you assume a dealer would be happy to put all of their incremental sale profits into the build costs of a DC charger? My guess is that this business case would come pretty close to the business case that would be made for putting a DC charger at a different location that also has limited draw for charging sales. A business case for placing a charger at a Ford dealership would likely be much weaker than the business case for placing a charger at a more accessible convenience store that may sell gas but that also sells food and drink and has readily accessible restrooms. If you were going to invest your own money to install a DC charger along your planned route in hopes of making a profit from the investment, would you locate the charger at a Ford dealer or at a convenience store in an accessible location? Generally speaking, investors don't make investments to lose money. Ford dealers generally don't make investments to lose money. So to build the business case for a Ford dealer to invest in a DC charger, as the man said, "Show me the money."

Sorry about the lengthy response but I would hope that Ford dealers would make rational investments that are expected to make money. It does not seem many of them have been shown the business case for making money by investing in a DC charger. Maybe this could change if a zillion EVs can be sold in those rural areas but I don't see that happening short term before the infrastructure is built out by EA and others.

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[delacruz.c5d]

I'm not saying that the little dealerships should be force to do this on their own. Just the opposite, Ford should be subsidizing this. Just like Tesla did, the business model worked out for them.

OP, I totally understand your sentiment. I really do.

That being said, my personal opinion (my opinion...which no one needs to agree with) is that I don't think that this is completely a necessity. Would it be nice, of course, but there are a few things that leads me down this road:

1) Tesla is a great success story, and the model has worked well. But one of the major reasons why it worked is because Tesla doesn't have a "traditional" dealer network. That's one of the reasons why in "my fair state" there are zero Tesla dealers. They directly own all of the retail locations where you can purchase a Model "whatever". Therefore, Tesla could directly pay for their DCFC network on their retail locations, and quite frankly HAD to in order for the product they were selling to work. Heck, they even had to make the supercharging free for a while...all while cutting into their non-existent profits for the first few years.

2) I don't think that Ford would require their dealers that are EV certified to have DCFCs on premise, to advertise as such, when in Ford's documentation they specifically state that DCFCing the vehicle frequently has an adverse effect on the life of the battery pack.

3) If BEV customers would be allowed to charge up their cars for free, why wouldn't their ICE customers get gas there for free? That's a major reason why a lot of companies (i.e. standard corporations, not car companies) that were offering free charging for EVs stopped doing so, and started charging for charging (that's a lot of "charging" in one sentence), or outsourced the payment system to a third company. While I know that you weren't suggesting that it would be free, how would the dealer charge the users? While it would be easy to make it part of the Blue Oval Network, are they now obligated to keep that station open 24/7? It raises a bunch of questions.

4) Cost, as stated in previous posts.

I do think that it makes sense for some sort of charging near the dealerships, but I can see how it makes sense that maybe not on the premise of the dealer. While it would be nice for the Blue Oval to chip in and make a better DCFC charging network for everyone, it's maybe not a good idea for that to be on a dealer lot. This is a really good example of where public/private entities need to work together to provide a solution.

 

[Badger_Prof]

[QUOTE="... there's this big thing call government subsidies which are about the only thing pushing EVs...."
[/QUOTE]
If government subsidies are "about the only thing pushing EVs" how do you explain the fact there are no government subsidies for those who buy the biggest selling EV in the country? Did Tesla sales drop when the federal tax credit for buying a Tesla went away? Actually, sales tripled after Teslas no longer qualified for the federal tax credit. Yes, tax credits might promote sales of qualified vehicles but I think there are more motivators than government subsidies.

 

[Logal727]

I'm confused by Ford selling EV's and not at least requiring their dealerships to have fast DC charging stations. I'm nearing delivery of my Mustang Mach-E GT and likely won't be able to make a trip from Saint Paul MN to Green Bay without hours of slow charging. There are tons of Ford dealers along that trip, and not one of them has a fast charger.
Most of them don't even have a 240v plug. This doesn't meet my expectations at all.

As I've driven this route for years
. I expected no problem for this route with all the dealers. Then I stopped by the dealerships and found NOTHING at theses dealership to fill in the charging gaps. Does anyone else expect more from FORD dealerships?

Bruh, they aren’t even required to know anything about the EVs, dealers suck

 

[Logal727]

Yep. I design DCFC projects for a living. 480V 3-phase at a minimum, and many we run 4 or 12kV service from the utility. You start getting more than a few DCFC units and the cost of the unit isn’t even the expensive part. The electrical switchgear and transformers alone can run half a million, plus any upgrades the utility has to do on their lines.

Wow that’s cool! Definitely would love to hear more about setting these up!

 

[IamIA]

don't discount 50kw chargers
thats still an 60% charge in an hour. Thats still way way way better than a 12KW L2 50A charger or a 7kW 30A L2.

25 and 50 kWh rock--especially when they are subsidized by the city for certain times in a day like here in Mountain View, CA and cost us $0

 

[Mockingbird]

Yeah, I have ALL the apps. Hwy 29 from Saint Paul to Green Bay is a EV dead zone. Wausau WI is about half way and has NOTHING, fast outside of Tesla.
240v is about as good as it gets. Green Bay is also empty for fast chagers, luckily I can stay overnight and get back to fully charged.

2019 Wisconsin Act 9 (2019-21 Enacted Budget) and Governor Evers’ Veto Message directed DOA to spend up to $10 million in VW Settlement Trust funds for Electric Vehicle Charging Station (EVCS) grants. However, the language authorizing the EVCS Grant Program ("Program") was removed from statute due to a Wisconsin Supreme Court opinion issued on July 10, 2020. Program activities have been suspended

 

[Mach-Lee]

EV certified Ford dealers are required to have Level-2 240V chargers, that's it. A lot don't yet, but don't seem to receive sanctions from Ford.

Do you know how much a L3 DC charger costs? Try $30,000+. There's no way most dealers would recuperate that expense in a reasonable timeframe. Some large dealers may choose to take that cost on, but it's totally optional. Either way, dealers aren't really set up to be charging destinations.

I'm totally fine with only L2 being required at dealers, L3 is optional.

 

[ChuckA]

Ford should partner with EVGO to install fast chargers on their property. These chargers don’t need to be free.

In my area you can’t take a long trip with an EV since there is a lack of fast charging. This has to depress sales of EV’s.

 

[Cptmorgemaker]

[QUOTE="... there's this big thing call government subsidies which are about the only thing pushing EVs...."

If government subsidies are "about the only thing pushing EVs" how do you explain the fact there are no government subsidies for those who buy the biggest selling EV in the country? Did Tesla sales drop when the federal tax credit for buying a Tesla went away? Actually, sales tripled after Teslas no longer qualified for the federal tax credit. Yes, tax credits might promote sales of qualified vehicles but I think there are more motivators than government subsidies.
[/QUOTE]

Sales for Tesla are great in cities and high populated areas. And Tesla solely ran their entire business on government subsidies for yrs and still benefit heavily from it. They make hundreds of millions of dollars selling pollution credits 400-500 million a quarter. I'd say that's a pretty good chunk of change. Also seeing Rivians results of pulling a trailer you won't get many truck users to switch to ev with out subsides and subsides for people to put chargers for bigger vehicles to access. Try pulling up and charging with a 20-30 ft boat or RV. And only getting 100-150 miles on a charge. I would not of bought a EV without a kicker no benefit for my case. I love my mach e but it definitely has many problems all EVs have and it's battery tech and price.

 

[Maquis]

I'm not saying that the little dealerships should be force to do this on their own. Just the opposite, Ford should be subsidizing this. Just like Tesla did, the business model worked out for them.

That doesn't makes sense.....Tesla doesn't even have dealers.

 

[RickMachE]

Many seem to not visit their Ford dealer often, especially in off hours, and look at the lot layout. My dealer, like many, puts vehicles across the entrances and exits.

My dealer has two chargers outside the dealership, located up against the building, in an area where they display EVs. That area is also next to the entrance lane to their Service area, where vehicles queue up to get into the Service entrance lane and get written up (it's an inside lane). It's very difficult to maneuver in that area as a result, and to get your vehicle up to the charger, but out of traffic, requires that one do careful maneuvering, especially if a 2nd vehicle is in there. It's not a pull straight in area.

My dealer will let anyone charge for free, as long as they remain on the premises. No "I'll charge while I go to the Michigan football game". Nope. And, as a level 2 charger, it's slow. There is nothing you can walk to from the dealership while your vehicle is charging, even if you wanted to.

This idea is a non-starter with most dealers (fast charging). As mentioned, you can find fast chargers at many Harley dealers, but there's a big difference between a 50kw charger and a 150 or faster charger when you're on a trip.

 

[Jimrpa]

I’m not sure about immediately requiring DCFCs, but perhaps at least upgrading the existing chargers that were installed in the days of the focus electric to faster L2 chargers, adding a few additional L2 chargers and clearly signing L2 charger spaces as “Electric Vehicles Only”. I went to the dealer last week and a stupid Cadillac Escalade (a potential customer for a ford/Lincoln product) was parked in the only space that could access the charger - ARGH!!!!

 

[SaintPaulMustangMach-E_GT]

Okay okay, I'm not even yet a newbie. Still waiting for delivery and researching how to get outside of my metro bubble. But I can't imagine my wife sitting still while we wait for an hour to refill.....
Just not a good option.

300 mile trip in the winter across largely rural Wisconsin. Walmart Wausau and anything in Green Bay. Today there's nothing literally nothing fast. Now Tesla was the locations if everything created dc charging stations

That doesn't makes sense.....Tesla doesn't even have dealers.

No they don't have dealerships but they do have proprietary charging stations in locations like Wausa WI. Strange that Tesla can have charging stations and Ford and others need the US government to make them for them. And what ever happened to Ford getting access to Tesla stations, I heard that was coming, and then a year went by and nothing.

 

[Triggerhappy007]

The dealership Ive ordered from has 2 in front and 1 in back by the vehicle prep area ! But the gate is closed and locked at 7pm

Level 2 or DC Fast Charger? If DC, what speed?

The bad thing about having DC Chargers on premises is that all dealers in my state are closed on Sundays. I hope they plan that out if they are going to install them in the future.

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