Mach-E Web Series Part 2: SYNC 4A

[SnBGC]

I'm assuming you use synthetic. My comment referenced conventional motor oil; I change my synthetic at 6k - 7k miles.

Rotella or Delo mostly. Non synthetic. Synthetic in a diesel engine is a waste of money except for fleet use. Proven by lab results.

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[jparduhn70]

During the webinar, I asked the moderators to comment on Ford's partnership with TomTom for navigation versus the more obvious choice of Google (free updates of maps, POIs, etc) and asked about costs. Free for life? Subscription based?

They didn't answer my question but, in response to another viewer, said the when sold, the MME would have all of the functionality out of the box. Then he became a bit coy skirting around the question, but implying that some features (not specific) would have a cost if you wanted to continue after some (non-specified) period of time.

What this actually means is anyone's guess at this stage. But we do know that companies want a revenue stream, instead of a buy once, use for life model.

I don't expect to have "free" unlimited for life 4 or 5G video streaming. It doesn't matter to me anyway because I have a decent cellular data plan.

On the other hand, I don't expect navigation to be hobbled, nor display and updates for charging waypoints, nor the underlying data required for the Co-pilot features and so on.

It will be interesting to see how much "grace" period we get for which features.

I saw you ask this question and heard their ultimate answer. If past is prologue, my guess is we get a year of navigation and real-time traffic updates, and after that we'll need to pay. Before the dawn of Waze and other maps integrations with CarPlay, I would find the DVD on eBay or wherever to update the system, but don't feel the need to waste money on it anymore. I love the onboard navigation, but to pay for something I can get for free, while the free product is much better makes more sense to me. The differentiator with the new Sync 4A navigation may be the trip planner for charges while long haul driving. I've never been impressed with the Waze or Google Maps functionality.

 

[SnBGC]

To clarify the last comment about synthetic oil....
The lab results indicate that cylinder blow by in a passenger vehicle with diesel engine contaminates the oil before the lubricating properties of regular dino oil begins to break down. The benefits of synthetic is wasted because the oil needs to be changed due to cylinder gas contamination and we dont get to take advantage of the extended lubrication life it provides.
Hope that makes some sense. The lab showed it to me on a presentation they did for our fleet vehicles.....it was very helpful.

 

[timbop]

To clarify the last comment about synthetic oil....
The lab results indicate that cylinder blow by in a passenger vehicle with diesel engine contaminates the oil before the lubricating properties of regular dino oil begins to break down. The benefits of synthetic is wasted because the oil needs to be changed due to cylinder gas contamination and we dont get to take advantage of the extended lubrication life it provides.
Hope that makes some sense. The lab showed it to me on a presentation they did for our fleet vehicles.....it was very helpful.

never had a diesel, so the fact that its over my head is irrelevant

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

It has nothing to do with the car being "smart" or "dumb".

I think I realized where the fundamental difference here is. It applies to this and the Start button and probably other things.

As soon as you talk about limiting charge because batteries work a certain way blah blah, you are talking about technology. I am looking at this like a normal random uneducated about random tech stuff would. It's a car. It should act like a car, just with electricity instead of dead dinosaurs. Worrying about limited charge, cars magically begin "started" without being started... Those are weird for a normal driver. Can someone learn? Sure. Plenty do. But why should a "Mustang" driver have to think that way? (this is actually where the charging network thing is a major problem because normally drivers have near zero range anxiety except for that time I had a rental Explorer show "-7" miles remaining - true story)

Both points of view are, I believe, legitimate. It seems very much like Ford has decided "normal uneducated driver new to all of this" as the design goal when it conflicts with "I am a person that knows all about batteries and never charge my phone above 80%".

I don't think there's a "right" answer here. I tend to fall into the "it's a car" camp (clearly) and others do not. (this is why I talk about "dumb" - this is not a thing a gas driver ever thinks about... So having to think about it at all is, from that viewpoint, a step back. It's reasonable, I believe, for a 'normal' driver to say "wait I have to do what? When? Why? $60K and I have to think about this? That's dumb!")

That said, it means that bottom line is that in this specific case, as Ford has designed this vehicle, doing the 80% thing is probably not worth the loss of range or effort. It's your car, you can do what you want, but the buffer means it's not necessary, at least not at the same level as you would in a vehicle without the large buffer.

Whew.

 

[dbsb3233]

I can see both sides of it. Do we want:

(a) the Mach-E to be extra careful blocking off battery reserve so we don't even have to think about being careful with the battery?

-or-

(b) to be allowed to dip deeper into that reserve to extend range in rare cases, knowing we need to be careful not to do it frequently?

It's probably smart for Ford to pick (a) for now. But I'd also like the option of (b) when I'm on a road trip. No right or wrong either way. Pros and cons to both.

I also wonder a bit whether (b) is really there but they just don't tell us. In other words, what actually happens if we drive it to 0%? Does it shut down right there, or does it allow us to push down further into the reserve? Time will tell, I suppose.

 

[timbop]

I think I realized where the fundamental difference here is. It applies to this and the Start button and probably other things.

As soon as you talk about limiting charge because batteries work a certain way blah blah, you are talking about technology. I am looking at this like a normal random uneducated about random tech stuff would. It's a car. It should act like a car, just with electricity instead of dead dinosaurs. Worrying about limited charge, cars magically begin "started" without being started... Those are weird for a normal driver. Can someone learn? Sure. Plenty do. But why should a "Mustang" driver have to think that way? (this is actually where the charging network thing is a major problem because normally drivers have near zero range anxiety except for that time I had a rental Explorer show "-7" miles remaining - true story)

Both points of view are, I believe, legitimate. It seems very much like Ford has decided "normal uneducated driver new to all of this" as the design goal when it conflicts with "I am a person that knows all about batteries and never charge my phone above 80%".

I don't think there's a "right" answer here. I tend to fall into the "it's a car" camp (clearly) and others do not. (this is why I talk about "dumb" - this is not a thing a gas driver ever thinks about... So having to think about it at all is, from that viewpoint, a step back. It's reasonable, I believe, for a 'normal' driver to say "wait I have to do what? When? Why? $60K and I have to think about this? That's dumb!")

That said, it means that bottom line is that in this specific case, as Ford has designed this vehicle, doing the 80% thing is probably not worth the loss of range or effort. It's your car, you can do what you want, but the buffer means it's not necessary, at least not at the same level as you would in a vehicle without the large buffer.

Whew.

Unquestionably the Mach E is designed for the "average" driver who just wants to get in the car and drive, without having to learn anything different from every car they've ever driven. Ford has absolutely accomplished that - all of the controls will be familiar for a luddite like my wife. The start button, location of the side mirror controls, windshield wipers, seat controls, environmental controls: everything is exactly where and works exactly how she would expect it. Well, except the door - my wife will pause at the door handle

With that said, as with every Ford I expect there to be maintenance tips in the manual, and just like you'd see the oil change schedule in an ICE I expect they will have battery health suggestions. One can follow the recommendations or not, and results will of course vary.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

(b) to be allowed to dip deeper into that reserve to extend range in rare cases, knowing we need to be careful not to do it frequently?

I gave this some thought actually before my post. What I'd be worried about, if I were Ford, is the following:

1. Normal driver gets their car and starts driving, never looking at the electronic manual because they didn't look at the paper manual ever, either.
2. They somehow come across the "let me go to 100% instead of 80%" setting while screwing around with their new toy, and turn it on.
3. A warning screen comes up they don't read, because most people are used to "click through licensing" and "stupid computer; just let me do this."
4. They see their range max goes up by 25%. "YAY! I CAN DRIVE ANOTHER 50 MILES (*)!" (*) semi-random number to make a point, exact number doesn't matter
5. They leave it on forever because MOR RANGE ZOOM!
6. Their battery is negatively impacted because they are doing 100% every night (again normal person, just like they do their cell phone)...
7. Three years in, their battery is jacked, just like on their cell phones, and they demand Ford replace a part that costs over $10,000 under warranty, and Ford has to comply.

I don't think this scenario is that far off the mark. It's in Ford's best interest to avoid this whole thing and in some ways in all our best interests, because it avoids the car getting a bad reputation for failing batteries, tanking the resale value and Ford's BEV reputation.

Just to make sure I'm being completely clear: I am not saying that it's ideal that truly educated drivers that are willing to accept the risk, and won't hold Ford responsible for the degradation as a result, can't make that decision. I just think they made a judgement call, one that as part of buying the car, you're accepting.

 

[zhackwyatt]

1. Their battery is negatively impacted because they are doing 100% every night (again normal person, just like they do their cell phone)...
2. Three years in, their battery is jacked, just like on their cell phones, and they demand Ford replace a part that costs over $10,000 under warranty, and Ford has to comply.

I wish I could limit my cell phone to 90%. Then after a couple years, it'll be closer to 90% capacity instead of 75%.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

I wish I could limit my cell phone to 90%. Then after a couple years, it'll be closer to 90% capacity instead of 75%.

I have seen people talking about doing things like using Home Assistant to monitor their phone charge level, and turning off the outlet to the charger when the phone reaches 80%. That seems a bit extreme to me, but then again I'm still used to being able to actually change my phone's battery with a new one when it's screwed, so...

 

[JamieGeek]

I saw you ask this question and heard their ultimate answer. If past is prologue, my guess is we get a year of navigation and real-time traffic updates, and after that we'll need to pay. Before the dawn of Waze and other maps integrations with CarPlay, I would find the DVD on eBay or wherever to update the system, but don't feel the need to waste money on it anymore. I love the onboard navigation, but to pay for something I can get for free, while the free product is much better makes more sense to me. The differentiator with the new Sync 4A navigation may be the trip planner for charges while long haul driving. I've never been impressed with the Waze or Google Maps functionality.

In one of the presentations they said that map data was cloud based and would always be up to date (much like Google, Apple, Microsoft, etc.).

What is free (typically Ford gives you stuff free for 3 years so that leasing people don't have to pay at all) is the networking to get that data (e.g. "Ford Pass access" and the modem in the car).

 

[macchiaz-o]

I wish I could limit my cell phone to 90%. Then after a couple years, it'll be closer to 90% capacity instead of 75%.

Seeing as how dead batteries are more or less the typical forcing function of my phone replacements... Yeah, I've been wanting this feature, too.

 

[macchiaz-o]

what actually happens if we drive it to 0%? Does it shut down right there, or does it allow us to push down further into the reserve? Time will tell, I suppose.

I've done this several times in my Fiesta, because the manual indicated that when "0 miles remaining" is first reached, there's still something like 0.5-1 gallons left in the tank.

I assume the same will be true on the Mach-E. But since you've got the First Edition order (hopefully!) and I do not, I'll be awaiting your test results.

 

[Jolteon]

It has nothing to do with the car being "smart" or "dumb". ALL mechanical devices are subject to wear and tear, and their lifespans can be shortened or extended depending upon how you treat them. If you never change the filter in your house's A/C, it will be less effective and fail sooner than if you do. If you change the conventional oil in your car every 10k miles the engine won't last as long as if you change it every 3500 miles. If you have a convertible top and never put protectant on it and never park it inside it will not last as long as if you do. Likewise you can baby your BEV battery or drive it hard.

ALL Li-ion batteries suffer degradation through extended use whether that degradation is visible to you or not. ALWAYS. Overcharging and deeply discharging shorten the lifespan and future ability to fully charge. ALWAYS. It is an unavoidable attribute of the way they are designed. As Scotty would say "you can't change the laws of physics".

The difference in philosophy is whether that degradation is masked from you or visible. The smaller the buffer the more you see the reality, and the larger the buffer the more it is masked from you. Those are design decisions each with their own compromises: having to pay more attention to how you charge vs always having less range than the theoretical maximum.

Even though Ford took the latter approach, I am going to do what I can to extend the battery life - just like I change my oil more frequently and put protectant on my convertible's roof. It's a personal choice.

Exactly. I never charge my personal phone to 100%, always between 80-90% and unplug. My phone's battery is healthier than my parents who charge to 100%, even though they use theirs less.

Personal choice.

I'd much rather have 90% recommended and a smaller buffer in the battery, than carrying around hundreds or thousands of dollars of extra battery I'm never allowed to access.

 

[timbop]

I gave this some thought actually before my post. What I'd be worried about, if I were Ford, is the following:

1. Normal driver gets their car and starts driving, never looking at the electronic manual because they didn't look at the paper manual ever, either.
2. They somehow come across the "let me go to 100% instead of 80%" setting while screwing around with their new toy, and turn it on.
3. A warning screen comes up they don't read, because most people are used to "click through licensing" and "stupid computer; just let me do this."
4. They see their range max goes up by 25%. "YAY! I CAN DRIVE ANOTHER 50 MILES (*)!" (*) semi-random number to make a point, exact number doesn't matter
5. They leave it on forever because MOR RANGE ZOOM!
6. Their battery is negatively impacted because they are doing 100% every night (again normal person, just like they do their cell phone)...
7. Three years in, their battery is jacked, just like on their cell phones, and they demand Ford replace a part that costs over $10,000 under warranty, and Ford has to comply.

I don't think this scenario is that far off the mark. It's in Ford's best interest to avoid this whole thing and in some ways in all our best interests, because it avoids the car getting a bad reputation for failing batteries, tanking the resale value and Ford's BEV reputation.

Just to make sure I'm being completely clear: I am not saying that it's ideal that truly educated drivers that are willing to accept the risk, and won't hold Ford responsible for the degradation as a result, can't make that decision. I just think they made a judgement call, one that as part of buying the car, you're accepting.

Very fair point, and probably exactly why they put a 10% buffer into the Mach E. But, we'll see what their recommendations are.

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