1,920 Ford dealers have enrolled in Model e program for 2024-2026 period

[devmach-e]

Do not disregard what I'll term the 'value commitment' by Ford. I'll relate to Toyota's commitment to hybrids in the early 2000s. Toyota was the only manufacturer to fully commit to a hybrid line. They provided a 10-year drive train warranty. All things that $ as the bottom line would argue against. However, this assured myself and hundreds of thousands of other buyers of Toyota's commitment. I bought two Prius hybrids. Each was flawless and drove 200,000+ miles averaging 45+mph combined city/hwy.
Now, I am assured that Ford dealers will have qualified technicians, multiple L2 or greater chargers where I live or along travel routes. I think Ford will win a lot of 'value commitment' from many thousands of consumers. The $ value of this will only be known after several years lag.

Great discussion everyone.

Toyota didn't provide a 10-year/150K mile warranty for the hybrid system out of the goodness of their heart when they first started selling the Prius. California required it initially. Somewhere along the way (post 2006, I think), California stopped requiring that length of a warranty on the non-plug-in hybrid. Toyota, for whatever reason, opted to keep that more generous warranty in place. Probably because they had enough data that showed how reliable the system is and the risk was low, and it is a good selling point. The plug-in hybrids are still required to carry a 10-year/150K mile warranty.

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[Fremont Kid]

Toyota didn't provide a 10-year/150K mile warranty for the hybrid system out of the goodness of their heart when they first started selling the Prius. California required it initially. Somewhere along the way (post 2006, I think), California stopped requiring that length of a warranty on the non-plug-in hybrid. Toyota, for whatever reason, opted to keep that more generous warranty in place. Probably because they had enough data that showed how reliable the system is and the risk was low, and it is a good selling point. The plug-in hybrids are still required to carry a 10-year/150K mile warranty.
[/Q
Did not realize CA required the warranty initially. Thanks. However, your statement "Toyota, for whatever reason, opted to keep that more generous warranty in place." supports my position that they recognized the longer-term 'value commitment', which I think Ford will engender with consumers.

 

[Guss-E 2021]

I read a Seeking Alpha article this morning discussing the possible ouster of Jim Farley as CEO. Now, the article was definitely framed as the sole opinion of the author but it got me thinking. VW kicked out Diess who was very pro EV. The new guy, not so much. If Farley does go, I wonder if his replacement would continue to enforce his mandates. The whole Model E initiative has its fair share of detractors at the dealership level. I wonder just how on board Ford's Board of Directors are about Ford's electric future.

 

[dbsb3233]

I read a Seeking Alpha article this morning discussing the possible ouster of Jim Farley as CEO. Now, the article was definitely framed as the sole opinion of the author but it got me thinking. VW kicked out Diess who was very pro EV. The new guy, not so much. If Farley does go, I wonder if his replacement would continue to enforce his mandates. The whole Model E initiative has its fair share of detractors at the dealership level. I wonder just how on board Ford's Board of Directors are about Ford's electric future.

Wouldn't completely surprise me. Building and offering EV models (just like ICE models) through dealerships is great. But then Ford tried to undercut that by embarking on a path to bypass dealerships and force rather onerous requirements on them selectively for EVs only. That's really trying to upset the apple cart, and gonna cause some waves.

While I get Farley's fear of Tesla's direct sales model overtaking them, I also tend to think it's an overreaction to the unusual 2021-2022 market conditions. Popular EV models started coming out right as the post-COVID supply chain issues hit, creating a highly unusual supply-demand imbalance that jacked market prices up. And Ford was slow to react to with higher MSRPs to grab their share of that windfall.

But 2021-2022 is not the norm. Supplies will catch up and normalize, and demand will slow down. It's already happening. We're starting to see some lot inventory of MMEs now and the high ADMs are fading. Trying to edge dealerships out of the equation is starting to look premature now.

 

[AhardFSU]

Wouldn't completely surprise me. Building and offering EV models (just like ICE models) through dealerships is great. But then Ford tried to undercut that by embarking on a path to bypass dealerships and force rather onerous requirements on them selectively for EVs only. That's really trying to upset the apple cart, and gonna cause some waves.

While I get Farley's fear of Tesla's direct sales model overtaking them, I also tend to think it's an overreaction to the unusual 2021-2022 market conditions. Popular EV models started coming out right as the post-COVID supply chain issues hit, creating a highly unusual supply-demand imbalance that jacked market prices up. And Ford was slow to react to with higher MSRPs to grab their share of that windfall.

But 2021-2022 is not the norm. Supplies will catch up and normalize, and demand will slow down. It's already happening. We're starting to see some lot inventory of MMEs now and the high ADMs are fading. Trying to edge dealerships out of the equation is starting to look premature now.

In the long term GM, Ford, Toyota, Hyundai, Ram, etc May not want to push their dealers out of the equation, but all indicators point to them wanting the dealers to stop paying games with ADM.

Some dealers get the message, but it seems like some still have their heads stuck in the sand. The competition is there from other brands and you can’t in good conscience tack on a 10k or 20k ADM when your competitors are 10k lower than you are for their competing model; it’s madness.

 

[dbsb3233]

The competition is there from other brands and you can’t in good conscience tack on a 10k or 20k ADM when your competitors are 10k lower than you are for their competing model; it’s madness.

Tesla jacked their prices up too though. They just do it in the MSRP rather than ADM. But it's the same result for the consumer (higher market prices). Model Y MSRPs went up like 8 times in that period. The difference is Tesla got that windfall, while Ford saw most of it go to their dealers instead. Tesla was much faster to react to the market, while Ford was slow.

I know people hate ADM, and there is a lot of inconsistency in how it's applied from one dealership to another, even in the same city. That doesn't help. But it's no worse than the manufacturer just jacking the MSRP up by the same amount. Actually it can be better, because sometimes buyers can find a dealer that won't add it (or add as much) when the alternative is what Tesla does - raise the MSRP frequently as the market shifts.

 

[dtbaker61]

I was just on the Rotunda website looking for a VCM3 and saw that they have the DC Fast Chargers dealers will install listed for sale. 120kw chargers are $85k, and there's a 240kw charger for $106k.
https://rotunda.service-solutions.com/en-US/Pages/SearchResults.aspx?CKey=( (CatalogLevel1_Name_en-US:"Electric Vehicle Equipment") )&CTitle=Electric Vehicle Equipment&CSelectedKey=CatalogLevel1_Name_en-US:"Electric Vehicle Equipment"|Electric Vehicle Equipment

$85k for the charger maybe.... but that doesn't include dedicated transformer, 3-phase power, and site-prep/install. They will also have ongoing O&M, connectivity and billing charges since the L3 units are supposed to be available to Public (allowing them to charge to recover costs).

I'd be interested to hear exactly what Dealers will be paying for initial installs, and ongoing Operating costs.

 

[SWO]

Of course.

 

[Guss-E 2021]

Wouldn't completely surprise me. Building and offering EV models (just like ICE models) through dealerships is great. But then Ford tried to undercut that by embarking on a path to bypass dealerships and force rather onerous requirements on them selectively for EVs only. That's really trying to upset the apple cart, and gonna cause some waves.

While I get Farley's fear of Tesla's direct sales model overtaking them, I also tend to think it's an overreaction to the unusual 2021-2022 market conditions. Popular EV models started coming out right as the post-COVID supply chain issues hit, creating a highly unusual supply-demand imbalance that jacked market prices up. And Ford was slow to react to with higher MSRPs to grab their share of that windfall.

But 2021-2022 is not the norm. Supplies will catch up and normalize, and demand will slow down. It's already happening. We're starting to see some lot inventory of MMEs now and the high ADMs are fading. Trying to edge dealerships out of the equation is starting to look premature now.

Right. I would also add that BEVs are still really a very new product for most car buyers. There is a lot of disinformation out there. If the dealerships get on board, they could play a pivotal role in educating buyers on the transition.

Sure, companies like Rivian provided a thorough, in person tutorial on the day of delivery. But once the delivery agent leaves the driveway, there is no dealership to return to for follow up support.

I'm hoping Farley or not, Ford realizes the hits it has with its electric offerings and keeps the ball rolling.

 

[Reign of Ravens]

I read a Seeking Alpha article this morning discussing the possible ouster of Jim Farley as CEO. Now, the article was definitely framed as the sole opinion of the author but it got me thinking. VW kicked out Diess who was very pro EV. The new guy, not so much. If Farley does go, I wonder if his replacement would continue to enforce his mandates. The whole Model E initiative has its fair share of detractors at the dealership level. I wonder just how on board Ford's Board of Directors are about Ford's electric future.

If true, it would probably depend on why he would be ousted. Is it just the hard pushes for becoming more like Tesla, or something else? I'm honestly surprised Diess was removed from VW, but in reading about it, part of it was his leadership style, but the bigger issue was he didn't fix some software issues that delayed other vehicles under the VW umbrella... so it seems it wasn't necessarily the focus on electrification (although we may never know for sure).

Toyota just swapped out their anti-BEV CEO for someone who seems to be friendlier to the idea... I think companies are getting in line with electrification, rather than trying to return to leadership that is less supportive or against it.

While I get Farley's fear of Tesla's direct sales model overtaking them, I also tend to think it's an overreaction to the unusual 2021-2022 market conditions. Popular EV models started coming out right as the post-COVID supply chain issues hit, creating a highly unusual supply-demand imbalance that jacked market prices up. And Ford was slow to react to with higher MSRPs to grab their share of that windfall.

But 2021-2022 is not the norm. Supplies will catch up and normalize, and demand will slow down. It's already happening. We're starting to see some lot inventory of MMEs now and the high ADMs are fading. Trying to edge dealerships out of the equation is starting to look premature now.

It's more than just the pandemic, it's a generational thing. I've read the opinions on here of people who love to play the game with dealerships and who come out ahead. I spent way more time than I wanted buying my first car, and didn't want to go between multiple dealerships to make sure I got the best price - I just wanted to make sure I wasn't getting screwed over. I don't buy cars often, and I despise dealerships. I don't want to haggle unless there's a trade-in involved. I want to know what the price is, get in, and get out. If the price is fluid, that means I can get screwed over. I just want to pay a fair price. I am willing to pay more to not have to waste my time and potentially get screwed by dealership personnel. Based on what I've read, I am in good company and that opinion only strengthens for the generation below mine (who, if certain articles are to be believed, are even cultivating a growing sense of not even wanting to bother with car ownership).

As for Mach-E inventory and ADM, Ford raised the price of the Mach-E and then doubled back when Tesla lowered the price of the Model Y - some articles quoted people as giving up their Mach-E orders to go with a Model Y, instead, as they felt they were getting more for their money and that it was more established. Additionally, while the Mach-E was the only real Tesla competitor for a bit over a year, there are now many other EVs to choose from. There are a lot of variables at play and I'd suspect that they have more to do with it than the clearing up of pandemic aftershocks, but the usual disclaimer: I don't have the marketing data to really say for sure what it is.

 

[RickMachE]

I read a Seeking Alpha article this morning discussing the possible ouster of Jim Farley as CEO. Now, the article was definitely framed as the sole opinion of the author but it got me thinking. VW kicked out Diess who was very pro EV. The new guy, not so much. If Farley does go, I wonder if his replacement would continue to enforce his mandates. The whole Model E initiative has its fair share of detractors at the dealership level. I wonder just how on board Ford's Board of Directors are about Ford's electric future.

It is irrelevant how Ford's BOD feels. All that matters is how one person feels - Bill Ford. You must not know much about Ford.

In 2011, Bill Ford vowed to be 25% electric by 2020. Bill Ford, not Jim Farley, is the mastermind behind Ford's push to electric.

 

[dbsb3233]

It's more than just the pandemic, it's a generational thing. I've read the opinions on here of people who love to play the game with dealerships and who come out ahead. I spent way more time than I wanted buying my first car, and didn't want to go between multiple dealerships to make sure I got the best price - I just wanted to make sure I wasn't getting screwed over. I don't buy cars often, and I despise dealerships. I don't want to haggle unless there's a trade-in involved. I want to know what the price is, get in, and get out. If the price is fluid, that means I can get screwed over. I just want to pay a fair price. I am willing to pay more to not have to waste my time and potentially get screwed by dealership personnel. Based on what I've read, I am in good company and that opinion only strengthens for the generation below mine (who, if certain articles are to be believed, are even cultivating a growing sense of not even wanting to bother with car ownership).

Most people don't like the negotiation game, that's true. But that doesn't really mean fixed pricing will give them a better deal either. It just means manufacturers will have to end up changing fixed prices far more frequently to keep up with the undulating market. That's what Tesla did, increasing prices on the Y 8 times last year.

Pros and cons to both methods, of course. But I agree probably over half of the public would rather just pay a fixed price, even if it means they're getting a worse deal. Sales have a very psychological component to them. Making people feel like they're getting a fair deal often means more than whether they actually are getting a good deal. And fixed pricing tends to do that.

 

[Reign of Ravens]

Most people don't like the negotiation game, that's true. But that doesn't really mean fixed pricing will give them a better deal either. It just means manufacturers will have to end up changing fixed prices far more frequently to keep up with the undulating market. That's what Tesla did, increasing prices on the Y 8 times last year.

Pros and cons to both methods, of course. But I agree probably over half of the public would rather just pay a fixed price, even if it means they're getting a worse deal. Sales have a very psychological component to them. Making people feel like they're getting a fair deal often means more than whether they actually are getting a good deal. And fixed pricing tends to do that.

Deals are relative - I'm talking about going beyond pure dollar amounts.

The last time I bought a car the conventional way, negotiating and going back and forth, I spent five hours in the dealership. Five hours. That doesn't include the time I had been communicating with other dealerships in advance of this event as well. My wife and I were exhausted by the end of it. I didn't feel elation at having a new car, I was just glad to be done with the ordeal. And while I got some concessions out of the dealership, I didn't feel that I drove a stellar bargain. I did not feel it had been worth my time.

When I bought my Mach-E it was generally accepted that there were no deals to be had - it was a deal to get it at MSRP. They lowballed my trade-in so badly that I didn't even bother negotiating with them and sold to someone else. But the dealership did a few things that showed they really, really wanted to add on more than just MSRP. While I was in and out of the dealership in under an hour, the months of waiting and trying to guard against add-on nonsense was stressful. I was reaching a point where I couldn't order another car with a months-long wait, and if the dealership wanted to screw me over, they could have. And heck, it was in their financial incentive to do so - they readily stated that there was markup on vehicles sold off of the lot, but not on customer orders (although that changed shortly after I got my order in, it seems - even customer orders would get hit with ADM, but just not as much).

Two crappy experiences. But what if the price were fixed, I could just see what each manufacturer was selling their vehicle at, and then I could place my order and not have to worry about a dealership trying to get extra money out of me? Bliss.

I get it, we all have different interests and hobbies. Some people's idea of a good time is going in and out of dealerships, chatting with sales people, playing hard to get, playing dealerships against each other, and trying to whittle off hundreds to maybe a few thousand dollars from the price. That's not my idea of a good time. I buy cars so infrequently that I also don't feel like it's worth it. My situation is mine alone, but as I said before, I know I am in good company in saying that I would be happy if other companies could copy Tesla's sales model. And if it costs a bit extra, so be it. Pity the dealerships don't ask up front if you want to pay a few hundred extra to guarantee that the sales people will buzz off and absolutely guarantee they won't touch your order - I might have paid that.

 

[Mach1E]

Most people don't like the negotiation game, that's true. But that doesn't really mean fixed pricing will give them a better deal either. It just means manufacturers will have to end up changing fixed prices far more frequently to keep up with the undulating market. That's what Tesla did, increasing prices on the Y 8 times last year.

Pros and cons to both methods, of course. But I agree probably over half of the public would rather just pay a fixed price, even if it means they're getting a worse deal. Sales have a very psychological component to them. Making people feel like they're getting a fair deal often means more than whether they actually are getting a good deal. And fixed pricing tends to do that.

You say “most” and “over half” prefer the fixed pricing model.

Yet most attempts at fixed pricing models in the past have failed.

While I would agree that most people don’t enjoy the negotiation experience……..they still do it.

People like to “feel” like they got a good deal. Tons of psychology in it. Raise MSRP $8000, then give people “2k off MSRP” and they’re happy for some reason.

I disagree that fixed pricing would result in the same happy feeling. People may feel they got a “fair” deal if everyone else pays the same price. But there is no psychological “win.”

With the Mach E for example. People seem fine to pay MSRP. But if you get X plan? We brag about getting X plan for years.

Only way people brag about MSRP? When other people pay an ADM…..

How do I know people actually PREFER to negotiate? They don’t have to. They could pay the advertised price every time. And yet when they show up to the dealership………..

 

[timbop]

Deals are relative - I'm talking about going beyond pure dollar amounts.

The last time I bought a car the conventional way, negotiating and going back and forth, I spent five hours in the dealership. Five hours. That doesn't include the time I had been communicating with other dealerships in advance of this event as well. My wife and I were exhausted by the end of it. I didn't feel elation at having a new car, I was just glad to be done with the ordeal. And while I got some concessions out of the dealership, I didn't feel that I drove a stellar bargain. I did not feel it had been worth my time.

When I bought my Mach-E it was generally accepted that there were no deals to be had - it was a deal to get it at MSRP. They lowballed my trade-in so badly that I didn't even bother negotiating with them and sold to someone else. But the dealership did a few things that showed they really, really wanted to add on more than just MSRP. While I was in and out of the dealership in under an hour, the months of waiting and trying to guard against add-on nonsense was stressful. I was reaching a point where I couldn't order another car with a months-long wait, and if the dealership wanted to screw me over, they could have. And heck, it was in their financial incentive to do so - they readily stated that there was markup on vehicles sold off of the lot, but not on customer orders (although that changed shortly after I got my order in, it seems - even customer orders would get hit with ADM, but just not as much).

Two crappy experiences. But what if the price were fixed, I could just see what each manufacturer was selling their vehicle at, and then I could place my order and not have to worry about a dealership trying to get extra money out of me? Bliss.

I get it, we all have different interests and hobbies. Some people's idea of a good time is going in and out of dealerships, chatting with sales people, playing hard to get, playing dealerships against each other, and trying to whittle off hundreds to maybe a few thousand dollars from the price. That's not my idea of a good time. I buy cars so infrequently that I also don't feel like it's worth it. My situation is mine alone, but as I said before, I know I am in good company in saying that I would be happy if other companies could copy Tesla's sales model. And if it costs a bit extra, so be it. Pity the dealerships don't ask up front if you want to pay a few hundred extra to guarantee that the sales people will buzz off and absolutely guarantee they won't touch your order - I might have paid that.

I get that dealerships can be brutal, although most of my experiences haven't been that bad. Once I spent 4 hours back in the 90's, but for the most part I've gotten in and out in an hour or so. In September 2020 the lack of information from Ford and the continued delays got me to test drive a Tesla. While the pricing on the car is "upfront", $2000 for bad red paint struck me as exorbitant with no recourse (thats why 85% of Teslas you see are white). The car I planned to trade in had a KBB value of $11,500 - they offered me $8000. My Ford dealer (who charged no markup or any other crap) gave me $11k, and I was there for 45 minutes.

You spent 5 hours because you were haggling to get a cheaper price - at Tesla you pay what they say which means they make extra money off of you. A lot of money - to the point that they have big enough margins to knock $15k off the price without blinking. Think about that.

You certainly could have done no haggling at your dealer, but somehow you would feel cheated paying what the dealer said - but not the Tesla employee?

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