Level 2 chargers at grocery stores seem pointless

[dbsb3233]

The theory works great.

The reality is the “juice usually isn’t worth the squeeze.”

IE the infrastructure to charge costs way more than the electricity is worth.

EVs make great sense when you charge from home (both from a cost and environmental standpoint). Everything else is less than ideal. DC in particular costs the most and likely is the worst from an environmental impact standpoint…… so it should be used the least.

Exactly. Not to mention that playing the musical chairs game chasing L2 chargers around town it a royal PITA. Most people won't put up with that exercise in frustration. They'll just go back to gas if that becomes necessary.

If we expect this EV thing to work for the masses, it's gotta be with easy overnight charging where they sleep as the 90% solution. Like charging your cell phone overnight on the nightstand.

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[Deleted member 19354]

Because complaining about the complainers is so much more beneficial. Thanks for contributing.

So are there really that many ev owners who can't charge at home? There's no way I could do that.

My 240 panel is over 600 feet away from my garage and would cost approximately $3K to install. Because I’m so close to many level 2 and 3 Indidnt feel it was worth the extra. However I do use the level 1 charger and I plan accordingly. Example I ran errands over the weekend came home Sunday around 4pm with 20%. I plugged in the level 1 and just let it trickle. I WFM so I’m not going anywhere during the day so when I need to go out after work I have a good 50% or so plenty to run my evening dinner etc. I just plan accordingly

 

[kltye]

I agree with most here. These public chargers should be scaled to the expected time in the business. IMHO, a grocery store should be fine with a 50kW. A movie theater or restaurant would be ok with the 10kW. Unfortunately, most of those are installed for compliance or to show face. So they are mostly doomed to fail. Again, this is my opinion.

I think you might be missing the point here. DC chargers are an order of magnitude more expensive than L2 outlets - and that's just equipment cost. I also wouldn't assume any business has 50kW of available capacity at their site either. I'd much rather lots of easily installed equipment spring up everywhere when possible, rather than getting stuck in the weeds with permitting, cost, etc., for a DC charger.

High-powered AC charging (10kW and above) is the best compromise between speed and installation cost. Imagine if a large percentage of parking spots in malls and stores have access to it; that would mitigate a lot of issues with people who don't have at-home charging. I'm not even asking for it to be free - just a reasonable rate per kWh is all I'm after.

 

[mkhuffman]

My 240 panel is over 600 feet away from my garage and would cost approximately $3K to install. Because I’m so close to many level 2 and 3 Indidnt feel it was worth the extra. However I do use the level 1 charger and I plan accordingly. Example I ran errands over the weekend came home Sunday around 4pm with 20%. I plugged in the level 1 and just let it trickle. I WFM so I’m not going anywhere during the day so when I need to go out after work I have a good 50% or so plenty to run my evening dinner etc. I just plan accordingly

While there are L2 EVSEs nearby your home, I hope you only use them when you are also using the services or buying the products offered by the businesses who are paying for the electricity. IMO it is theft to use someone else's electricity unless you are a guest of the business that is paying for it.

For example, plugging in while shopping at the grocery store or eating at the restaurant is not theft. Plugging in when you have no intention of doing either is theft.

Living with only L1 would be a real burden for me. $3k is a lot, but if you plan to be at your house for many years it is probably worth it.

 

[RickMachE]

While there are L2 EVSEs nearby your home, I hope you only use them when you are also using the services or buying the products offered by the businesses who are paying for the electricity. IMO it is theft to use someone else's electricity unless you are a guest of the business that is paying for it.

For example, plugging in while shopping at the grocery store or eating at the restaurant is not theft. Plugging in when you have no intention of doing either is theft.

Living with only L1 would be a real burden for me. $3k is a lot, but if you plan to be at your house for many years it is probably worth it.

Any business installing a charger needs to have signage defining usage. A smart business will limit the usage to shoppers, but restricting usage to buyers would be a mistake.

Theft is a strong word and inappropriate without signage.

If the grocery store, which shares a parking lot with 5 other stores, has chargers in front of them, is shopping at the drugstore next to it ok? What if I don't buy anything?

Public chargers need to have limits and Ideally tie the charger to shoppers with an app designed to identify customers and weed out deadbeats. If a grocery store can give me gas rewards, they can give me charging rewards too.

 

[21st Century Pony]

While there are L2 EVSEs nearby your home, I hope you only use them when you are also using the services or buying the products offered by the businesses who are paying for the electricity. IMO it is theft to use someone else's electricity unless you are a guest of the business that is paying for it.

For example, plugging in while shopping at the grocery store or eating at the restaurant is not theft. Plugging in when you have no intention of doing either is theft.

This all depends on the intent of the equipment owner. There are concepts such as "public good" and also "marketing loss leaders".

For example, if there are two ice cream stores a block apart and one installs an outside bench (let's ignore for now whether the town would accept it on a public sidewalk... this has been known to happen) then people who sit on that bench aren't stealing even though they might never buy ice cream. That ice cream store might benefit by providing a public focal point without use restrictions, and might thus increase congregation in its vicinity, which would potentially increase ice cream sales compared to its benchless competitor one block away.

 

[RickMachE]

In the US, about 65% of people own vs rent. In CA, that number is 55%, the lowest in the country. Nevada is close at 57%. Renters often seek public charging because they cannot install chargers. Therefore, people in these states may experience more local chargers than in other states.

 

[Mach1E]

This all depends on the intent of the equipment owner. There are concepts such as "public good" and also "marketing loss leaders".

For example, if there are two ice cream stores a block apart and one installs an outside bench (let's ignore for now whether the town would accept it on a public sidewalk... this has been known to happen) then people who sit on that bench aren't stealing even though they might never buy ice cream. That ice cream store might benefit by providing a public focal point without use restrictions, and might thus increase congregation in its vicinity, which would potentially increase ice cream sales compared to its benchless competitor one block away.

Now imagine that bench costs $50,000 to install and whoever is sitting there gets free ice cream. But only one person can sit there at a time, they’ll sit there for hours and keep eating ice cream.

Or sometimes they’ll just sit on the bench and take a nap, and won’t even eat any.

Or they won’t even be hungry, take a few bites, but sit there for hours anyways.

Other people will tie their dog up to the bench blocking others from sitting or eating.

They put up a sign that says “only for people sitting and eating ice cream, 2 hour limit,” but it’s ignored and not enforced.

Seems like a dumb business idea to me and would just cost $$ and cause frustration

 

[21st Century Pony]

Now imagine that bench costs $50,000 to install and whoever is sitting there gets free ice cream. But only one person can sit there at a time, they’ll sit there for hours and keep eating ice cream.

Or sometimes they’ll just sit on the bench and take a nap, and won’t even eat any.

Or they won’t even be hungry, take a few bites, but sit there for hours anyways.

Other people will tie their dog up to the bench blocking others from sitting or eating.

They put up a sign that says “only for people sitting and eating ice cream, 2 hour limit,” but it’s ignored and not enforced.

Seems like a dumb business idea to me and would just cost $$ and cause frustration

Maybe... or maybe that very bench becomes a focal point for families who come buy THAT ice ceam. Some might stop over while driving to the movies or the skating rink etc.

Benches are actually for more than one person... that is what makes them good congregating points.

...and for $50k that ice cream shop could likely buy 18 benches, especially with a bulk purchase discount

 

[dbsb3233]

Any business installing a charger needs to have signage defining usage. A smart business will limit the usage to shoppers, but restricting usage to buyers would be a mistake.

Theft is a strong word and inappropriate without signage.

If the grocery store, which shares a parking lot with 5 other stores, has chargers in front of them, is shopping at the drugstore next to it ok? What if I don't buy anything?

Public chargers need to have limits and Ideally tie the charger to shoppers with an app designed to identify customers and weed out deadbeats. If a grocery store can give me gas rewards, they can give me charging rewards too.

This all takes care of itself if places like that start charging ($$) for it. Then it becomes a service that they're selling to make a profit, like any other retail service. Slap a 20c/kWh fee on it and you quickly separate the people that really need it from the people that are just milking it because it's free.

Eventually I see most of these chargers going one of 2 ways: open to the public at a price, or access controlled to just those that are authorized to use it.

Which is ultimately the way it should be.

 

[Neandrewthal]

The average driver needs to be plugged into a fast level 2 charger 1-2 hours a day, so this could help supplement their charging needs if they can't charge at night. In my mind though, charging where you park at night is the only real solution. A single 200A service with some control for load balancing can keep 15 EVs charged at nighttime rates *.

* Assumed 14,000 miles a year, 3 Mi/kWh, 8 hours of off-peak charging, maxing out 160A available from the service, 85% charging efficiency, and a 75% usage factor.

 

[21st Century Pony]

This all takes care of itself if places like that start charging ($$) for it. Then it becomes a service that they're selling to make a profit, like any other retail service. Slap a 20c/kWh fee on it and you quickly separate the people that really need it from the people that are just milking it because it's free.

Eventually I see most of these chargers going one of 2 ways: open to the public at a price, or access controlled to just those that are authorized to use it. Which is ultimately the way it should be.

We already worked out decades ago how to create street parking turnover by pay parking meters (formerly coin operated, now mostly electronic). Not that hard imho to add a Level 2 service layer to these systems. The payment mechanisms and the enforcement mechanisms are already there, built and understood... so this would be is a modification and not an entirely new use concept. Back to my 1910-era "public horse water trough" concept several posts ago here...

 

[Mach1E]

This all takes care of itself if places like that start charging ($$) for it. Then it becomes a service that they're selling to make a profit, like any other retail service. Slap a 20c/kWh fee on it and you quickly separate the people that really need it from the people that are just milking it because it's free.

Eventually I see most of these chargers going one of 2 ways: open to the public at a price, or access controlled to just those that are authorized to use it.

Which is ultimately the way it should be.

Yup. Pay to charge basically fixes it.

The bigger (long term issue) is that the charging business model doesn’t seem anywhere remotely near profitable.

How much revenue does a level 2 charger bring in a day? Maybe $10?

No wonder they are broken half the time.

 

[Deleted member 19354]

While there are L2 EVSEs nearby your home, I hope you only use them when you are also using the services or buying the products offered by the businesses who are paying for the electricity. IMO it is theft to use someone else's electricity unless you are a guest of the business that is paying for it.

For example, plugging in while shopping at the grocery store or eating at the restaurant is not theft. Plugging in when you have no intention of doing either is theft.

Living with only L1 would be a real burden for me. $3k is a lot, but if you plan to be at your house for many years it is probably worth it.

Yes I do support my local businesses. Our convention center in Snohomish County has a few good restaurants there and generally plug in while I eat.

 

[ChehRob]

Level 2 chargers in many places can be really inexpensive to install. A simple metered charging system can also be inexpensive, probably similar to those downtown tolled parking systems. The real limitation is how much power is available the 'residential' pricing.

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