Thoughts on Ford's dedication to updates (Tesla vs Ford)

[yirdboy]

The word you're looking for is "gimmick". As an example, everybody wants the Samsung fridge with a tablet on it until they get one and the reality that they are built like sh!t and break within a couple of years sets in. Neither the model Y nor the Mach E will be that bad, but the point is that you don't want gimicks that you'll never use more than once to make your decision. You're going to be spending a lot of money, so you should make sure the fundamentals are covered first.

It is unknown how gimmicky Ford's apps will be, but you have a LOT to look into and learn about the MME's capabilities if you want to make an informed decision. As of right now Ford doesn't have some of those gimmicky apps, but neither did Teslas when they first came out. Tomorrow you'll get a lot of info, but some of it will be repetitive because they'll all cover the basics.

Great point, it will definitely not be the end all be all of my decision. It's fun little tech features that are added over time that I think will be interesting to watch from my perspective. While it won't count for all of my decision, it has to be said that including some of these features over time, as gimmicky as they are, shows at least some dedication to user experience and input, which I definitely value. Tomorrow will be a big day in my decision making process, but I really appreciate all of your input.

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[Blinkin]

Ford’s OTA system is also on the country‘s best selling vehicle, the F150, so I’m sure significant resources will be invested keeping things current. Fords OTA updates are also designed to be much more transparent than Tesla’s clunky, old fashioned approach.

Good point about F-150. You know Ford's serious about something when they put it in their cash cow/crown jewel. The fact that F-150 now has OTA and will be getting BEV in under a year is VERY promising in terms of Ford taking those technologies seriously.

 

[RonTCat]

Do you think that all ford dealerships will be equipped to service these models? There certainly will be more dealerships than Tesla, but I also wonder if they will be able to actually work on them. I definitely am keeping this in mind though, the ford I'm assuming will have better build quality from the start and better service, which is definitely important.

Not all dealerships at first, but all dealership which sell the vehicle will be able to service them. So the dealer you buy from will be able to, but another local dealer may or may not, at least in 2020. That will change quickly, though. As noted in other posts, if you are a Ford dealer that wants to sell a F-150 BEV, you better get onboard quickly.

 

[SnBGC]

Do you think that all ford dealerships will be equipped to service these models? There certainly will be more dealerships than Tesla, but I also wonder if they will be able to actually work on them. I definitely am keeping this in mind though, the ford I'm assuming will have better build quality from the start and better service, which is definitely important.

I think about half of them are certified now. Eventually they all will have to be if they want to stay in business but that point is in the somewhat distant future still. There are things unique to servicing an EV that is important such as lift points. Some independent garages won't know how to lift these vehicles for a simple tire rotation so that should be really left to the dealership that are EV certified. I haven't checked yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a special lifting jig for the Mach E to go up on a lift and if so, then you would certainly want the dealership to be prepared.

Honestly though....the EV components are not very likely to need much service. Compared to an ICE vehicle....they are quite robust. But stuff does happen of course. So far, my EV has been to the shop 4 times.

1. Replace both front half (drive) shafts. This was because it was strapped down to the truck transport incorrectly and damaged the shafts in shipment from California to Arizona. Less than 1000 miles on the car.
2. Left Rear shock replaced. Was making a hard clunking noise after only 2000 miles on the car.
3. High Voltage Battery A/C valve replacement. The original failed after only 3700 miles. Probably related to the fact that the vehicle sat at a dealership in San Diego for 2 years before shipping to Arizona for sale.
4. APIM replacement and programming. 45,000 miles. This is the module that controls the Sync3 system. Ran me about $700 to replace because the car is out of warranty now.

Items 2 and 4 are general passenger vehicle issues. Could have been repaired by any dealer or a competent independent garage provided they are able to program Ford modules. Ford does allow mechanics to purchase diagnostic software licenses so that means we have lots of options when service is needed. Tesla does not allow this as far as I know. If a module goes out on a Tesla, then you are at their mercy. Period.

Items 1 and 2 are EV specific. I would ONLY want Ford to service something like that. The process was just like a regular service visit for any other vehicle that I have owned. Schedule an appointment, drop off the car, they diagnose it and then I open my wallet and cry a little.....
Well, actually......items 1, 2 and 3 were all under warranty. I only cried on item 4.

My brother and niece also have a Ford Focus Electric. Exact same model as I. Neither of them have had any issues that required a service visit to a dealer. My brother's 12v battery died and we replaced it ourselves. My niece needed a new set of tires and she purchased them at the dealership just to make sure the car was lifted correctly.

 

[timbop]

Not all dealerships at first, but all dealership which sell the vehicle will be able to service them. So the dealer you buy from will be able to, but another local dealer may or may not, at least in 2020. That will change quickly, though. As noted in other posts, if you are a Ford dealer that wants to sell a F-150 BEV, you better get onboard quickly.

That's not 100% correct. There are 2 levels of certification: selling and maintenance. The dealer I am buying from is certified to sell EVs but not yet for maintenance. There's a way to do an advanced search on ford.com for dealers by the services

 

[SnBGC]

That's not 100% correct. There are 2 levels of certification: selling and maintenance. The dealer I am buying from is certified to sell EVs but not yet for maintenance. There's a way to do an advanced search on ford.com for dealers by the services

That is interesting. I didn't know that. Like RonTCat.....I too thought that a dealer had to be EV certified for service to be allowed to sell. This explains why LHM Ford in Mesa didn't really seem to know how to handle my EV while SanTan Ford was much better trained.

 

[JellyBelly]

That's not 100% correct. There are 2 levels of certification: selling and maintenance. The dealer I am buying from is certified to sell EVs but not yet for maintenance. There's a way to do an advanced search on ford.com for dealers by the services

Interesting - did not realize that

 

[TheVirtualTim]

Price, the Mach E still has the 7500 tax credit (although I may not get it in time for that, looks like we are about 70k vehicles from losing the credit). With the tax credit the standard range premium that I am looking at comes in at around 40k. A really great price, but hinges on the tax credit, as the Model Y is about to debut a RWD version of their Long Range model that would have more range but sit under their AWD version at 48k. So Ford wins on price for now, but that may change with new offerings.

The tax credit wont run out anytime soon for Ford ... in part because Ford hasn't reached their limit. But also in part because of how the phase-out works.

Each manufacturer has it's own allocation of credits and the credit is based on having built and sold 200,000 qualifying vehicles ... but this doesn't end the credit (yet); it triggers the phase out process.

1. Full $7500 credit on the first 200,000 vehicles made and sold per manufacturer (the 200,000 is for all EV vehicles combined ... not per model.) Once 200,000 vehicles are produced, the phase-out is triggered.
2. Phase out begins ... all vehicles sold in the current calendar quarter in which the manufacturer exceeded their 200,000 vehicles still qualifies for the full credit.
3. All vehicles sold in the NEXT TWO calendar quarters also still get to claim the full credit.
4. The tax credit gets cut in half for the next two calendar quarters (so a $3750 tax credit) for all vehicles sold.
5. The tax credit gets cut in half again for the next two calendar quarters (so an $1875 tax credit) for all vehicles sold.
6. After that the tax credit is gone... $0.

I think the MME is the only Ford vehicle currently in production that would qualify and, if I recall, I thought the plan was to build 50,000 model year 2021 MME's (someone please correct me if I am misinformed). That would mean Ford will not exceed the 200,000 number on this model. A model year 2022 car likely would put them over the 200,000 number ... but you'd have plenty of advance notice because the phase-out program extends the number of people who can claim the full $7500 tax credit.

 

[SnBGC]

The tax credit wont run out anytime soon for Ford ... in part because Ford hasn't reached their limit. But also in part because of how the phase-out works.

Each manufacturer has it's own allocation of credits and the credit is based on having built and sold 200,000 qualifying vehicles ... but this doesn't end the credit (yet); it triggers the phase out process.

1. Full $7500 credit on the first 200,000 vehicles made and sold per manufacturer (the 200,000 is for all EV vehicles combined ... not per model.) Once 200,000 vehicles are produced, the phase-out is triggered.
2. Phase out begins ... all vehicles sold in the current calendar quarter in which the manufacturer exceeded their 200,000 vehicles still qualifies for the full credit.
3. All vehicles sold in the NEXT TWO calendar quarters also still get to claim the full credit.
4. The tax credit gets cut in half for the next two calendar quarters (so a $3750 tax credit) for all vehicles sold.
5. The tax credit gets cut in half again for the next two calendar quarters (so an $1875 tax credit) for all vehicles sold.
6. After that the tax credit is gone... $0.

I think the MME is the only Ford vehicle currently in production that would qualify and, if I recall, I thought the plan was to build 50,000 model year 2021 MME's (someone please correct me if I am misinformed). That would mean Ford will not exceed the 200,000 number on this model. A model year 2022 car likely would put them over the 200,000 number ... but you'd have plenty of advance notice because the phase-out program extends the number of people who can claim the full $7500 tax credit.

The Escape PHEV also qualified for the program.....but production is suspended so I think you are correct about the MME being the only vehicle left that qualifies.

And not all 50,000 are for the U.S. so that means it will take that much longer to reach the 200,000 vehicle sale mark.

 

[BadgerGreg]

As these two options are weighing on me, I can't help but come back to this concept of the update. Tesla has dropped the notion of a brand new model each year. Rather than coming out with a car each year that is drastically different, they update your car over time to make it better, sometimes at a cost. This is the future to me. To have a car that is 3 years old and still relevant is important to me. Technology is constantly changing, and to spend so much on a car for it to not stay relevant is a tough pill to swallow. So my question is this: will Ford adopt a similar model? I know they will come out with new models every year, or I at least believe this is the case, however I could still justify picking one up if they are planning on doing updates over the air to current owners. This seems like the biggest difference to me. Tesla is a software company that makes cars, Ford is a car company that makes software. In a growing age of tech and always being on the cutting edge, is my 45k Ford going to keep up with my 48k Tesla 3 years down the line?

One key difference in OTA issues that could be a differentiator is the Tesla Autopilot vs. Ford's Active Drive Assist. Tesla currently charges $10,000 for the Autopilot download; Ford is asking $600 for their version of the autopilot. Although I fully expect Ford's version to be (initially) more rudimentary than Tesla Autopilot, I expect it will get more refined and useful with future OTA updates. I've played with Tesla Autopilot while on a test drive...it works fairly well but not fool-proof by any measure. IMHO, not worth $10K. If you ever plan to take advantage of Autopilot (at least for highway driving), it would be much more cost-effective to go in the direction of the Mach E.

 

[generaltso]

One key difference in OTA issues that could be a differentiator is the Tesla Autopilot vs. Ford's Active Drive Assist. Tesla currently charges $10,000 for the Autopilot download; Ford is asking $600 for their version of the autopilot. Although I fully expect Ford's version to be (initially) more rudimentary than Tesla Autopilot, I expect it will get more refined and useful with future OTA updates. I've played with Tesla Autopilot while on a test drive...it works fairly well but not fool-proof by any measure. IMHO, not worth $10K. If you ever plan to take advantage of Autopilot (at least for highway driving), it would be much more cost-effective to go in the direction of the Mach E.

Autopilot is not $10k. You’re thinking of Full Self Driving.

 

[GoGoGadgetMachE]

As an example, everybody wants the Samsung fridge with a tablet on it

speak for yourself, Tim! ???

 

[malba2366]

As these two options are weighing on me, I can't help but come back to this concept of the update. Tesla has dropped the notion of a brand new model each year. Rather than coming out with a car each year that is drastically different, they update your car over time to make it better, sometimes at a cost. This is the future to me. To have a car that is 3 years old and still relevant is important to me. Technology is constantly changing, and to spend so much on a car for it to not stay relevant is a tough pill to swallow. So my question is this: will Ford adopt a similar model? I know they will come out with new models every year, or I at least believe this is the case, however I could still justify picking one up if they are planning on doing updates over the air to current owners. This seems like the biggest difference to me. Tesla is a software company that makes cars, Ford is a car company that makes software. In a growing age of tech and always being on the cutting edge, is my 45k Ford going to keep up with my 48k Tesla 3 years down the line?

I know this was long, thank you for taking the time to read my opinion, I look forward to all of your thoughts on this matter.

If updates to software/vehicle capabilities are of big interest to you, I would go with Tesla. Tesla views software and constant improvement of existing vehicles as a cornerstone of their owner experience. Yes, Ford has put these capabilities in these new cars, but Ford and all Legacy automakers have not shown a good track record of updating existing vehicles.

 

[BadgerGreg]

Autopilot is not $10k. You’re thinking of Full Self Driving.

This is true...although the way that Tesla bundles their driver assistance options, one would still need to fork out at least $4K to get the same features that Ford is looking to include in their Driver Assist. Tesla owners who want autosteer, autopark, and other features that Ford is currently touting with their Driver Assist package will still need to buy up to Enhanced Autopilot, which still sets you back at least $4,000. This still makes the MME a much better option (cost-wise) for this functionality.

 

[timbop]

speak for yourself, Tim! ???

Oh, I don't want one either. I've talked with a lot of appliance repair guys, and every one warns against Samsung and LG. Not only is it hard to get spare parts, but the Samsung's in particular are garbage.

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