sockmeister

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Awesome. Which model is this? AWD ER? (Edit - looks like AWD Ex)
If so...
Rated HP: 346 (this car: 375!)
Rated torque: 428 ft-lbs (this car: 409)

This thing measured a HP that was way higher (probably because the RPMs aren't correct?) And a torque loss of about 5.5%, which is about what you'd expect on an EV!

Exciting. Now for an intake an exhaust + tune :D
Whoa, this is an old thread.
Yup! Driveline loss for an EV is more along the lines of 5%, instead of 15% like in a typical ICE.
According to this dyno run, it comes out at 5.5% loss.
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dtbaker61

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If they were smart, they could have set the test conditions to the SAE standard conditions so the correction factor would be 1.0. But who knows what they did?

Mike

what I REALLY want to see is actual Torque curve at the wheels vs 'ground speed', unadjusted, for all the different Trims, AWD/RWD, SR/ER battery combinations.

The reason being that the Trim levels could well have different default settings on the Inverter Controllers managing the actual output ALLOWED thru the motor(s), and of course the AWD/RWD motor settings, and the voltage & capacity differences in the SR /ER batteries..... One thing I am super interested in is if the extra voltage availabe with ER battery adds enough torque to make up for the added weight in acceleration, or not.

As far as future 'tuning'.... it will probably be software hacks into the controller to allow higher current at the expense of battery life. Totally removing any Warranty on inverter, motor, and batteries, just like any race modification to ICE motor would negate factory engine warranty. ;)

The only other mods that will be performance oriented with be those that reduce weight.... starting with light wheels, then going after all the excess 'comfort and appearance' weight of panels, cameras, heavy stock seats, etc.
 

AzCoronaDog

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Awesome. Which model is this? AWD ER? (Edit - looks like AWD Ex)
If so...
Rated HP: 346 (this car: 375!)
Rated torque: 428 ft-lbs (this car: 409)

This thing measured a HP that was way higher (probably because the RPMs aren't correct?) And a torque loss of about 5.5%, which is about what you'd expect on an EV!

Exciting. Now for an intake an exhaust + tune :D
For an vehicle with a drivetrain that includes a transmission, differential, etc., there is a significant difference between the measurements at the wheels and what the manufacturer claims at the flywheel due to friction losses. My "325HP" advertised Camaro, bone stock, made over 300 HP at the wheels through an automatic transmission, which with a lockup torque converter eats about 15%.

I am not familiar with what exactly is in between the electric motor and the wheels on this BEV, so I have to wonder if there is any significant friction loss involved? And does Ford's advertised numbers already take this into account, or do they go for the higher, 'at the motor' measurements?

(I do not have my Mach-E yet, but I am a lifelong gearhead, so I am enjoying reading all the information here, especially from people that have been EV owners for some time.)
 

sockmeister

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For an vehicle with a drivetrain that includes a transmission, differential, etc., there is a significant difference between the measurements at the wheels and what the manufacturer claims at the flywheel due to friction losses. My "325HP" advertised Camaro, bone stock, made over 300 HP at the wheels through an automatic transmission, which with a lockup torque converter eats about 15%.

I am not familiar with what exactly is in between the electric motor and the wheels on this BEV, so I have to wonder if there is any significant friction loss involved? And does Ford's advertised numbers already take this into account, or do they go for the higher, 'at the motor' measurements?

(I do not have my Mach-E yet, but I am a lifelong gearhead, so I am enjoying reading all the information here, especially from people that have been EV owners for some time.)
As I mentioned above, typical EV drivetrain losses amount to around 5%.
Like yours, my '08 supercharged Mustang made 500 HP at the crank, but it dyno'd at around 450 RWHP. Standard 15% loss there. (EDIT: Actual crank HP was probably closer to 520.)
 

dtbaker61

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As I mentioned above, typical EV drivetrain losses amount to around 5%.
Like yours, my '08 supercharged Mustang made 500 HP at the crank, but it dyno'd at around 450 RWHP. Standard 15% loss there. (EDIT: Actual crank HP was probably closer to 520.)
sounds like a SWEET build on that '08 !

I get really tired of the inflated mfg claims and calculations.... I really only care about actual RWHP/speed curve... i.e. when the rubber meets the road, what can you actually put down!

With an EV, there is not much to 'tune' unless you have access to the actual Controller firmware parameters regulating the current. Changing any of that will have a negative effect on motor/battery life , but for people that WANT to do that, it would be the equivalent of re-chipping an ignition/fuel system, or changing carburator/injector/intake/exhaust systems.

That leaves weight....

removing rotating weight first with light wheels,
then 'unsprung' weight with light calipers/rotors
then.... depending how Spartan you want... seats, interior panels, sound deadening, glass>plastic, 'comfort features'.... all could go ;)
 

sockmeister

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sounds like a SWEET build on that '08 !

I get really tired of the inflated mfg claims and calculations.... I really only care about actual RWHP/speed curve... i.e. when the rubber meets the road, what can you actually put down!

With an EV, there is not much to 'tune' unless you have access to the actual Controller firmware parameters regulating the current. Changing any of that will have a negative effect on motor/battery life , but for people that WANT to do that, it would be the equivalent of re-chipping an ignition/fuel system, or changing carburator/injector/intake/exhaust systems.

That leaves weight....

removing rotating weight first with light wheels,
then 'unsprung' weight with light calipers/rotors
then.... depending how Spartan you want... seats, interior panels, sound deadening, glass>plastic, 'comfort features'.... all could go ;)
Yes! Tuning is going to be software, and then weight reduction.
Although, I'm willing to bet there will be "upgraded motors" eventually for a steep price... Like I'm sure someone will try to retrofit the GT front motor in the AWD Premium models. That sounds fun to me.
 

AzCoronaDog

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As I mentioned above, typical EV drivetrain losses amount to around 5%.
Like yours, my '08 supercharged Mustang made 500 HP at the crank, but it dyno'd at around 450 RWHP. Standard 15% loss there.
My bad - I did not read that far into the thread before typing my reply. Thank you!
5% seems reasonable considering how little there is between motor and wheels.

Around 2001, Mustang owners were not happy that their dyno results were not matching the advertised numbers, and I think Chevy took a more conservative approach. Ford got a lot more honest after that! I have not had the time to dyno my 911, but my finely tuned posterior dyno tells me the advertised 350hp is probably a bit low. The Mach-E will primarily be the wife's commuter, and her Hemi powered Jeep already has 10 more HP than my Porsche, so she will retain the daily driver HP bragging rights. I have a 420HP Yukon XL, but it has to push a 6,000 lb truck with the aerodynamics of a drag chute! (It will however, light up the 35" tires and scare the heck out of Prius drivers...)
 

sockmeister

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My bad - I did not read that far into the thread before typing my reply. Thank you!
5% seems reasonable considering how little there is between motor and wheels.

Around 2001, Mustang owners were not happy that their dyno results were not matching the advertised numbers, and I think Chevy took a more conservative approach. Ford got a lot more honest after that! I have not had the time to dyno my 911, but my finely tuned posterior dyno tells me the advertised 350hp is probably a bit low. The Mach-E will primarily be the wife's commuter, and her Hemi powered Jeep already has 10 more HP than my Porsche, so she will retain the daily driver HP bragging rights. I have a 420HP Yukon XL, but it has to push a 6,000 lb truck with the aerodynamics of a drag chute! (It will however, light up the 35" tires and scare the heck out of Prius drivers...)
Lol, now there's a high horsepower household!
Looks like you'll have to step up the 911 to a Taycan, now. :)
 

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Lol, now there's a high horsepower household!
Looks like you'll have to step up the 911 to a Taycan, now. :)

I prefer a high torque-to-weight ratio to plain massive horsepower any day....
 

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Lol, now there's a high horsepower household!
Looks like you'll have to step up the 911 to a Taycan, now. :)
I priced the Taycan just for fun, and in comparison Ford is giving away the Mach-E!
I know the Mach-E is very quick and will be plenty fun to drive, but I do so love the sound of a big V8 or a high revving flat 6.

I bought the Porsche from my mom after my dad passed from cancer, as he had bought it only 4 months before that. The only way I could afford it was by getting a very low interest very long term loan through the family trust so we would not have to take a bath selling it. And I had to sell my Camaro SS too. I do all my own maintenance too, because if you think a Ford stealership can rake you over the coals, try pricing anything at all at the Porsche dealer (Like a $375 oil change for the 911 - They do however, bend you over in a very sophisticated and elegant way... LOL)

Then I had to totally relearn performance driving for a car with similar, but thoroughly different manners! I could hang the Camaro out in the corners like a pro, and if you got a little carried away, "when in doubt, power out!". I discovered very quickly that that will get you killed in a rear engine performance car. The saving grace is the 911 becomes perfectly balanced in braking, and it can stop so hard it will literally make your eyes bleed. Camaro: brake early, then power out just before the apex and deal with any oversteer. Porsche: come in smoking hot, brake hard all the way through the apex, then power out to avoid the pants soiling understeer!

To say I have not been an EV fanboy is a huge understatement, but I am getting convinced I will very much enjoy the Mach-E. I saw one in person for the first time yesterday, and while it is no sexy 911, it is a very good looking car. We are spending about $14 a day on my wife's commute in premium gas, and if I have done the math correctly that should drop to about $2.50 or less in electricity.
 

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Hard to say, but based on that, in ideal conditions, I'd say an EV would always be at least as fast as an equal-weighted ICE with the same traction, aerodynamics, and weight, with 10% more power, yes!
I say "at least" because they will deliver their torque a lot more quickly than an ICE would, and also there'd be no transmission shifts to interrupt acceleration.
 

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HP is a poor way to predict EV performance....

Its the torque curve that counts 0-90 to determine acceleration either from a stop or coming out of a corner. Driving the mach-e is too easy with no shifting and super wide power band.
 

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HP is a poor way to predict EV performance....

Its the torque curve that counts 0-90 to determine acceleration either from a stop or coming out of a corner. Driving the mach-e is too easy with no shifting and super wide power band.
Very true. It's the area under the torque curve that matters. EVs deliver power differently and (with notable exceptions) don't lose torque to the ground by changing gears.

Mike
 
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