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GM and EVgo announce network expansion

LYTMCQ

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If somebody had to pay EVGo rates for every charge, it would be far cheaper to just pay for gas.
I use EVgo fairly often, average price per kWh is $0.29 kWh vs. Tesla's $0.27-$0.31.

85kWh x $0.29 = $24 for 270 miles on Mach-E. $0.09 a mile.

My Subaru on gasoline was 32 miles per gallon so $25 for 270 miles, almost identical to my previous gasoline car.

Current pricing using EVgo would make it just as economical to travel via Mach-E and EVgo as a 32 mpg gasoline car.

Paying $20k more for an EV than a similar ICE vehicle and then looking at energy cost differences for our infrequent non-commute travel doesn't make a lot of economic sense.

Idea behind paying $20k more for EV is to cut green house gas emissions.
 

dbsb3233

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I use EVgo fairly often, average price per kWh is $0.29 kWh vs. Tesla's $0.27-$0.31.

85kWh x $0.29 = $24 for 270 miles on Mach-E. $0.09 a mile.

My Subaru on gasoline was 32 miles per gallon so $25 for 270 miles, almost identical to my previous gasoline car.

Current pricing using EVgo would make it just as economical to travel via Mach-E and EVgo as a 32 mpg gasoline car.

Paying $20k more for an EV than a similar ICE vehicle and then looking at energy cost differences for our infrequent non-commute travel doesn't make a lot of economic sense.

Idea behind paying $20k more for EV is to cut green house gas emissions.
I think that's $0.29 per minute, not kWh, on their (still slow) 50 kW chargers. 88 kWh (AWD ER) would take 88 / 50 = 1.76 hours to fill (105 minutes). @ $0.29/minute that's $30.

32 MPG for the same 270 miles = 8.4 gallons. Gas prices vary but $2.50 is a good average (outside CA). That's $21.

But I agree that EVGo isn't hugely more expensive than gas. The far bigger issue is the slow charging time. People aren't gonna refuel all 88 kWh, of course, but 60 kWh would be a reasonable "fill-up". @ 50 Kw, that's 72 minutes. Few people are gonna put up with that on a frequent basis.

The new EVGo stations planned in the article are faster 100-350 kW ones. That's better, although most vehicles still slow down a lot. (The Mach-e averages 82 kW for the 45 minute 10-80% charge time they advertise.) But I also wonder what EVGo will charge for those 100-350 kW stations? It's logical to assume they'll charge a higher rate.
 

dbsb3233

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LYTMCQ

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Is their website showing incorrect pricing?
Poorly presented is probably the better answer. If you are a subscriber, the bottom line cost is about the same as EA and Tesla in practice.

CA law is requiring all to bill by kWh not by time and EA announced they were doing it nationwide but have not seen a change at "pump". That will clear up all the confusion.

Issue with public charging is availability not price so EVgo expanding and EA building out would two robust nationwide public charging networks.
 

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I listened to an interesting interview of an EVgo executive talking about their strategy around charging station locations and site selections. Definitely learned a lot about how they operate. I've included the podcast link as well as their youtube video of the interview for those interested.

Here's what I learned:
  • EVgo pays for the planning, installation, infrastructure, and maintenance.
  • Their business model wholly depends on usage.
  • Usage drives their strategy to concentrate in urban areas.
  • Busy route corridors are something they consider (World's Tallest Thermometer site).
  • Only 3rd party charger network that has Tesla connectors.

https://biofriendlyplanet.com/biofriendly-podcast/electric-vehicle-charging-with-evgo/


 

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I listened to an interesting interview of an EVgo executive talking about their strategy around charging station locations and site selections. Definitely learned a lot about how they operate. I've included the podcast link as well as their youtube video of the interview for those interested.

Here's what I learned:
  • EVgo pays for the planning, installation, infrastructure, and maintenance.
  • Their business model wholly depends on usage.
  • Usage drives their strategy to concentrate in urban areas.
  • Busy route corridors are something they consider (World's Tallest Thermometer site).
  • Only 3rd party charger network that has Tesla connectors.

https://biofriendlyplanet.com/biofriendly-podcast/electric-vehicle-charging-with-evgo/


Yeah this strikes at the heart of the "chicken and egg" issue with putting these (desperately needed) chargers in rural areas to enable the sales of EVs, but without the EVs on the road yet, the capital expenditure to build those sites can't be justified over another grocery store in big cities where EVs are currently concentrated.

I'm slightly irritated that EA chose to spend some of their funding on urban area chargers, rather than expanding across the Dakotas, through WV, south Texas, the UP of Michigan, etc. and letting EVgo handle the Target parking lot in Chicago.
 

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It's like @dbsb3233 said, they are getting ahead of the adoption curve. This is a good thing and helps remove a barrier to wider adoption. The piece of the puzzle that I don't see yet is DC fast charging at remote location destinations and the infrastructure to get there. There also needs to be a bunch of infill on routes between major cities.

Check out the sparse infrastructure between Detroit and Chicago.

Screenshot_20200731-092941.png
There may not be many chargers along 94, but it is only 130 miles between Kalamazoo and Detroit, less if you stop in Ann Arbor.
 

LYTMCQ

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letting EVgo handle the Target parking lot in Chicago.
EA didn't know about the EVgo/GM deal so hard to fault EA for not coordinating with EVgo.

EA and EVgo are competitors so not sure coordination is in either's best interest as they both want highest volume of customers.

What we should have is government regulation requiring all the big corporate gas stations to install 4 x 150kW chargers.
 

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EA didn't know about the EVgo/GM deal so hard to fault EA for not coordinating with EVgo.

EA and EVgo are competitors so not sure coordination is in either's best interest as they both want highest volume of customers.

What we should have is government regulation requiring all the big corporate gas stations to install 4 x 150kW chargers.
I didn't mean specifically coordinating with EVgo, just that I don't think EA should have put any chargers not along highways. They should have maximized their geographic reach before they focused on in-city "destination" charging.

I think the EA chargers in downtown Chicago are counter to EA's purpose and they should have left that part of the charging market to others.
 

dbsb3233

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I'm slightly irritated that EA chose to spend some of their funding on urban area chargers, rather than expanding across the Dakotas, through WV, south Texas, the UP of Michigan, etc. and letting EVgo handle the Target parking lot in Chicago.
Agreed. EA's current Phase 2 plan is 2/3rds city and 1/3rd highway investment. That sucks. I get why they probably did that -- the city chargers probably get more use (i.e. customer revenue). But most people charge at home. And for those that don't, there's usually SOME options nearby for charging (like ChargePoint). The far bigger barrier is highway/road trip charging.

The home-charging buyer is a huge market. Over 60% of the US population lives in the suburbs. At least half of those have a house and a garage. That's 100 million people. That's the "low-hanging fruit" of the BEV market. Focus there for a while before worrying about the exceptions. And where those people (which is probably most of us in this forum too) need 150kWh chargers is ON THE ROAD.
 

dbsb3233

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What we should have is government regulation requiring all the big corporate gas stations to install 4 x 150kW chargers.
That would be a HORRIBLE policy.

While some gas stations might also be good spots for chargers, most aren't. It's restaurant parking lots where the bulk of the highway road-trip chargers need to be.
 

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That's 100 million people. That's the "low-hanging fruit" of the BEV market. Focus there. And where those people (which is probably most of us in this forum too) need 150kWh chargers is ON THE ROAD.
To play devil's advocate, those people in the 'burbs only do 1 or 2 road trips a year. The 100 million living in urban areas will likely charge publicly every week.
 

dbsb3233

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To play devil's advocate, those people in the 'burbs only do 1 or 2 road trips a year. The 100 million living in urban areas will likely charge publicly every week.
Only if they choose to buy a BEV and put up with slow "fast" charging. WHich I think few beyond the diehards will.

You have to be a reeeeally dedicated enthusiast to buy a BEV if you don't have secure, dependable "park it & forget it" L2 charging on a nightly/daily basis. The time consumed for "babysit" charging may be ok for a few rare roadtrips, but not every single week. It's the "park it and forget it" charging that's required 95% of the time to get mainstream buyers onboard, IMO.

And then add to the that cost difference. All the fuel savings (2/3rds the cost of gas) goes away if not home charging. In fact at EA, it's just the reverse (2x-3x more expensive than gas). Makes buying a BEV go from a benefit to a detriment.
 

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Only if they choose to buy a BEV and put up with slow "fast" charging. WHich I think few beyond the diehards will.

You have to be a reeeeally dedicated enthusiast to buy a BEV if you don't have secure, dependable "park it & forget it" L2 charging on a nightly/daily basis. The time consumed for "babysit" charging may be ok for a few rare roadtrips, but not every single week. It's the "park it and forget it" charging that's required 95% of the time to get mainstream buyers onboard, IMO.

And then add to the that cost difference. All the fuel savings (2/3rds the cost of gas) goes away if not home charging. In fact at EA, it's just the reverse (2x-3x more expensive than gas). Makes buying a BEV go from a benefit to a detriment.
If L2/L3 chargers are ubiquitous, it's not really an issue is it? Especially if an 80% charge will last 200mi or many weeks if the car isn't used.

It might not be any more inconvenient than having the half or quarter tank of gas in the car most of us live with on a daily basis. Many of us have to swing by the grocery store gas station to refuel anyways where there's also a DCFC so it potentially wouldn't be any different with the MME.

Denver L2 and L3 chargers

Screenshot_20200811-131159.png
 



 








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