Mach-E vs Model Y Range Test, Alex on Autos

[pt19713]

We all knew the MYLR was going to be more efficient than the MME Ext AWD because the Tesla is lighter and has an uglier but more aerodynamic design (think Prius). But that efficiency difference is negligible and the electricity savings will never cover the (current) price difference.

By contrast, the range difference due to the bigger battery may be significant depending upon driving habits.

Terrible rollout aside, Ford knocked it out of the park with the MME itself and it could seriously threaten Tesla’s market share once Ford can start producing them in meaningful quantities. It is the better car in most regards.

The bigger issue is internal at Ford, and not the consumer, and that has to do with the battery pack size and cost. To give the consumer the range needed (270-300 miles), Ford needed the larger battery pack to get to that goal at the expense of the cost and weight. For the first few years, it's not an issue since it can be priced accordingly factoring in the Federal subsidy, but once that dries up, Ford will want to improve the efficiency and reduce the cost. That battery pack can't be cheap. On the 3/Y, the 78 kWh pack costs $18k to replace (which includes labor), so I'd imagine a 100 kWh pack would be $24k, give or take. As far as internal cost, I'd imagine the cost of the battery itself for Tesla is around $6k, around $8k for Ford. At 60,000 units a year, if Ford can reduce the cost of the battery pack by $2k, that's an annual saving of $120 million. Doesn't seem like much for Ford now but if the volumes ramp up, the difference will add up quickly.

In a few years when Ford gets the efficiency better, they may size down the battery pack, or leave it as is if they can reduce the cost by higher volume/economy of scale. My best guess is they'll keep the pack size the same and yield higher range from efficiency improvements. MME owners will get the experience the same thing Tesla owners go through, which is deciding to buy now, or wait for future improvements and changes.

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[Shayne]

The bigger issue is internal at Ford, and not the consumer, and that has to do with the battery pack size and cost. To give the consumer the range needed (270-300 miles), Ford needed the larger battery pack to get to that goal at the expense of the cost and weight. For the first few years, it's not an issue since it can be priced accordingly factoring in the Federal subsidy, but once that dries up, Ford will want to improve the efficiency and reduce the cost. That battery pack can't be cheap. On the 3/Y, the 78 kWh pack costs $18k to replace (which includes labor), so I'd imagine a 100 kWh pack would be $24k, give or take. As far as internal cost, I'd imagine the cost of the battery itself for Tesla is around $6k, around $8k for Ford. At 60,000 units a year, if Ford can reduce the cost of the battery pack by $2k, that's an annual saving of $120 million. Doesn't seem like much for Ford now but if the volumes ramp up, the difference will add up quickly.

In a few years when Ford gets the efficiency better, they may size down the battery pack, or leave it as is if they can reduce the cost by higher volume/economy of scale. My best guess is they'll keep the pack size the same and yield higher range from efficiency improvements. MME owners will get the experience the same thing Tesla owners go through, which is deciding to buy now, or wait for future improvements and changes.

Actually ford did not need that big of a battery at the end and hence an 11% warranty buffer. The difference is 88 to 72 and the 88 goes farther on the highway. That is based on this vid of Alex's and him smiling and driving away from a super charger at the end. A 100D is why a lot of people toke ford seriously tesla still has them if you can afford it. Glad to get one when it is a 100D ?.

 

[timbop]

The bigger issue is internal at Ford, and not the consumer, and that has to do with the battery pack size and cost. To give the consumer the range needed (270-300 miles), Ford needed the larger battery pack to get to that goal at the expense of the cost and weight.

Well, your assertion that the MY in this test has "something wrong" with it's battery may in fact be related to the much smaller buffer in the MY. Yes, Ford made the calculated decision to put a 28% bigger battery in the MME but only use what amounts to a 22% bigger one. While that decision does indeed affect cost, it also means that the full 88kwh will be available for a much longer time period as the battery degrades.

Regardless, the Tesla is 15% more efficient but has a 22% smaller battery, so it makes perfect sense that the MME goes further. So yes, on a road trip the MME will cost 15% more and probably take 20% longer to charge. IMO that is still a huge win for Ford in light of it being their first true BEV - a 15% to 20% disadvantage on the first go is not terribly significant. The myth of Tesla's insurmountable BEV dominance is now laid bare.

Actually ford did not need that big of a battery at the end and hence an 11% warranty buffer. The difference is 88 to 72 and the 88 goes farther on the highway.

Yes, they could have a small buffer like Tesla but Ford obviously intends the MME to be a mainstream car that keeps its range for a long time. It is also clear that Ford intends for BEV neophytes to be able to drive the car without having to research into how to drive and care for the car, or learn a significantly different interface.

 

[Shayne]

Yes, they could have a small buffer like Tesla but Ford obviously intends the MME to be a mainstream car that keeps its range for a long time. It is also clear that Ford intends for BEV neophytes to be able to drive the car without having to research into how to drive and care for the car, or learn a significantly different interface.

I think I explained my understand and reasoning in my post. Not just tesla has a smaller buffer. Unless you have a bit of an understanding of the limitations and function of an EV noting the charging network we currently have up here it will not be going main stream any time soon. Education of new things is required. I finally got debt cards and pay at the pumps down pat. Now if we could just figure out these smart phones.

 

[timbop]

I think I explained my understand and reasoning in my post. Not just tesla has a smaller buffer. Unless you have a bit of an understanding of the limitations and function of an EV noting the charging network we currently have up here it will not be going main stream any time soon. Education of new things is required. I finally got debt cards and pay at the pumps down pat. Now if we could just figure out these smart phones.

Yes, up north you are absolutely at an infrastructure disadvantage. I am not trying to argue with you, I was trying to agree with you about the car itself. Absolutely Ford completely underestimated the logistics of supporting a "mainstream BEV", but the engineering of the car itself is clearly intended to require much less "reeducation" compared to a Tesla. There's no way in hell I could get my wife comfortable with all the menus and gestures you have to remember on a model Y or 3. In the Mach E the headlights, high beams, mirror settings, steering wheel adjustments, windshield wipers, and environmental controls are all plainly obvious for her without any "training" like a Tesla.

Returning to the point about the battery size, since it has a big buffer someone can buy a Mach E, drive it and charge at home with very little training. With the big buffer, they don't even have to go through the steps to set up a custom charging profile at less than 100% if they don't want to. Charging on the road, yeah that is still a crap shoot.

 

[Juan-Marco]

We all knew the MYLR was going to be more efficient than the MME Ext AWD because the Tesla is lighter and has an uglier but more aerodynamic design (think Prius). But that efficiency difference is negligible and the electricity savings will never cover the (current) price difference.

By contrast, the range difference due to the bigger battery may be significant depending upon driving habits.

Terrible rollout aside, Ford knocked it out of the park with the MME itself and it could seriously threaten Tesla’s market share once Ford can start producing them in meaningful quantities. It is the better car in most regards.

There are multiple forum comments and comparison reviews about this with complicated math and boring numbers.
I understand that range is important, but I also understand that everyone who buys a BEV, should understand that the tech has not reached a point where it is on par with a similar size ICE SUV.
The Mach E is not the most efficient, neither does it have the furthest range of currently available BEV SUV's.
And I don't care.
If we control all the factors possible and compare the correct trims of the Mach E to the the correct Tesla model and make this a good scientific study; and the Tesla ends up going farther and being more efficient, then what?
Then good for them, I still don't want a Tesla.
While math seems super important to some, it has formed a very small part of my decision to buy this BEV SUV compared to a different option.
The price is a lot more than what my wife would like me to spend.
The range is a lot more than my daily needs, no matter the weather.
If I wanted a cheap and efficient car, I would not have driven and liked my Audi S5.
I know and expect a total different experience going to the Mach E and what is great to me is not needing to go to the stupid gas station to fill it up any more.

 

[pt19713]

Well, your assertion that the MY in this test has "something wrong" with it's battery may in fact be related to the much smaller buffer in the MY. Yes, Ford made the calculated decision to put a 28% bigger battery in the MME but only use what amounts to a 22% bigger one. While that decision does indeed affect cost, it also means that the full 88kwh will be available for a much longer time period as the battery degrades.

Regardless, the Tesla is 15% more efficient but has a 22% smaller battery, so it makes perfect sense that the MME goes further. So yes, on a road trip the MME will cost 15% more and probably take 20% longer to charge. IMO that is still a huge win for Ford in light of it being their first true BEV - a 15% to 20% disadvantage on the first go is not terribly significant. The myth of Tesla's insurmountable BEV dominance is now laid bare.

I think you missed the point of my calculations, though, in my first post? I don't see how the Y can go from 260 wh/mi at the halfway point to 320 wh/mi at the end, to achieve those numbers. Something doesn't add up.

 

[Woeo]

Agree. What impressed me more was his comment about the elevation, and the fact that if it was straight freeway, the gap between the Mach-E and MY may have been even greater.

Not to be a wet blanket, but didn’t he say gap would be less? That the MME was more efficient climbing the mountain than driving 75?

EDIT: I had it backwards.

 

[eltonlin]

Not to be a wet blanket, but didn’t he say gap would be less? That the MME was more efficient climbing the mountain than driving 75?

Gonna have to re-listen. Thought he said that the MME would be less efficient given the additional weight and power needed to lug it uphill.

 

[Woeo]

Gonna have to re-listen. Thought he said that the MME would be less efficient given the additional weight and power needed to lug it uphill.

You were correct. Sorry. Will edit.

 

[Orangefirefish]

Yes, Ford made the calculated decision to put a 28% bigger battery in the MME but only use what amounts to a 22% bigger one. While that decision does indeed affect cost, it also means that the full 88kwh will be available for a much longer time period as the battery degrades.

Indeed, and the other implication is that Ford advises that it’s fine to charge to 90% regularly, whereas Tesla has been 80%. So on a day to day basis where the owner is concerned about maintaining battery longevity, that’s yet more range for regular use, on top of already being a bigger battery. Bottom line is, dollar for for dollar, MME buyers are getting a bigger battery vs MY equivalents, in both SR and ER versions. My decision to go SR vs ER was purely on how close the usable level of the SR battery was in size compared to the LR Model Y, while being much lower in cost (even more after incentives).

 

[SteelMach]

Does this show us EPA test may require tweaking for EV's? It is possible if the variance during Alex's vid is the case.

Oh goodness yes. Look at the Taycan and how the EPA test understates its mileage on the other end of the scale from how Tesla games the test to overstate.

 

[Electric Fusion]

I like this type of real world test driving under the same conditions at closely match speeds overall ..

Also efficiency does not matter to normal people looking to go from ICE vehicle to EV, all they want to know is will they get close to EPA numbers in the real world, telling me I have a very efficient vehicle that don’t have the range I buy makes no sense to even say it’s efficient..

the model Y is rated for 326 miles vs Mach E 270 miles .. all anyone cares about is what they are buying and what can they expect..

Also doing the efficiency math the Mach E usable battery pack 88kWh is only 17.5% greater than model Y pack usable and with 16% remaining on the Mach E tells me the Model Y is not even that much more efficient because the Mach E is heavier than the Model Y and should expect to have more consumption because of its weight..

Honestly base on that real world test I feel the Mach E and Model Y has similar efficiency..Mach E may be better IMO if you also counts the weight of the Mach E..

Ford did amazing on their first true BEV vs Tesla 12 years head start..

 

[Shayne]

Yes, up north you are absolutely at an infrastructure disadvantage. I am not trying to argue with you, I was trying to agree with you about the car itself. Absolutely Ford completely underestimated the logistics of supporting a "mainstream BEV", but the engineering of the car itself is clearly intended to require much less "reeducation" compared to a Tesla. There's no way in hell I could get my wife comfortable with all the menus and gestures you have to remember on a model Y or 3. In the Mach E the headlights, high beams, mirror settings, steering wheel adjustments, windshield wipers, and environmental controls are all plainly obvious for her without any "training" like a Tesla.

Returning to the point about the battery size, since it has a big buffer someone can buy a Mach E, drive it and charge at home with very little training. With the big buffer, they don't even have to go through the steps to set up a custom charging profile at less than 100% if they don't want to. Charging on the road, yeah that is still a crap shoot.

You are right and mine finds it familiar also. With all the new buttons, take the cruise cluster, it is a bit new for both of us even if it was not a BEV. Never had a car I could let the wheel go for so long without driving it with my knees. It is the battery tech of the bev that needs to go mainstream and to educate people on why (other than the very obvious reason). If we all spread the word of no more gas stations, little maintenance and being able to going 150 miles on $5 people can learn. Doesn't hurt they have massive torque and can go like snot. Understand your point about confusing that message by giving people something that they sit in that also feels unfamiliar. Ford has a real nice offering here and I hope they sell as many as they can build.

 

[Jimrpa]

tl;dr:

MY = 234
MME = 268

with caveats, disclaimers, etc.

edit per video comments: MY=244, MME = 274

Sigh. Wish I had scrolled down slightly before sitting through the agonizing YouCrap video with the annoying music and incessant, mindless blathering. Ugh.

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