SYNC 5 / Codename Phoenix - Inside Look

[tuminatr]

That all depends on the features but when I upgrade to CarPlay in my 2014 explore sport it was a great selling point.

Agreed, I did the same to a 2013 Lincoln MKZ and even took it one step further replacing the center counsel and center dash with 2017 parts. This replaced all the capacitive touch buttons with physical ones. It was a huge upgrade.

Not sure what Android Automotive is going to bring that we don't already have. And after renting a Volvo with AA I don't think it's faster or smoother either. Speed and smoothness could be better with newer or more high end hardware

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[TheSteelRider]

Will this come OTA? (Yes this is a joke)

Yes, Ford has announced they will OTA this new system "soon"

 

[danielcb]

Interesting to see they went with Qualcomm for the SoC. Maybe this is a good departure from the current x86_64 Atom era type of SoC that powers the current version of Sync 4A.
I just wish we could upgrade the existing for the new part, but I doubt Ford will do that.

 

[Reign of Ravens]

I'm really looking forward to using the built-in android automotive instead of trying to connect my phone each time via Apple Car Play or Android Auto. Native android on the next car sounds amazing.

Not sure what Android Automotive is going to bring that we don't already have. And after renting a Volvo with AA I don't think it's faster or smoother either. Speed and smoothness could be better with newer or more high end hardware

Google made the naming scheme a bit difficult with the Android Auto stuff. There's Android as a competitor to CarPlay - what you see and do, screencast and controlled by your phone - and then there's Android as a base operating system for cars. Android as a base system doesn't dictate what the user interface looks like, it's just the operating system that car companies build upon. Ford's SYNC system doesn't need to look any different whether it's running on Android or what ever it's currently made from.

The benefit is theoretically to the car companies. There's a unified operating system that they're not responsible for, and they can focus on designing functionality and user-facing things. It still works with Android Auto and Apple CarPlay, as it isn't made to replace them.

As for whether it can be upgraded, current vehicles have so many electronics that I don't think it would be easy or even possible to swap a lot of these things out. It's certainly not as easy as swapping out the head units that we did back in the past. It would certainly be nice if Ford and other car companies designed their vehicles with possible upgrades in mind, though. Not that I'd want to be nickel-and-dimed but I'd pay a few hundred to upgrade the processor in the Mach-E for a smoother and more responsive experience on touch screen elements. (The Mach-E arguably should have come with it anyway, particularly given how so much is controlled through it - if I remember right, Mach-E's in China do have a faster processor for this reason...) We'll see how long EVs last compared to ICE but if data from older Teslas seems to indicate that the batteries hold up surprisingly well, as to do the powertrains. It would be pretty sad if people were dumping their cars purely because the processors were too outdated... although I guess that happens with other electronics, too.

 

[tuminatr]

Google made the naming scheme a bit difficult with the Android Auto stuff. There's Android as a competitor to CarPlay - what you see and do, screencast and controlled by your phone - and then there's Android as a base operating system for cars. Android as a base system doesn't dictate what the user interface looks like, it's just the operating system that car companies build upon. Ford's SYNC system doesn't need to look any different whether it's running on Android or what ever it's currently made from.

The benefit is theoretically to the car companies. There's a unified operating system that they're not responsible for, and they can focus on designing functionality and user-facing things. It still works with Android Auto and Apple CarPlay, as it isn't made to replace them.

As for whether it can be upgraded, current vehicles have so many electronics that I don't think it would be easy or even possible to swap a lot of these things out. It's certainly not as easy as swapping out the head units that we did back in the past. It would certainly be nice if Ford and other car companies designed their vehicles with possible upgrades in mind, though. Not that I'd want to be nickel-and-dimed but I'd pay a few hundred to upgrade the processor in the Mach-E for a smoother and more responsive experience on touch screen elements. (The Mach-E arguably should have come with it anyway, particularly given how so much is controlled through it - if I remember right, Mach-E's in China do have a faster processor for this reason...) We'll see how long EVs last compared to ICE but if data from older Teslas seems to indicate that the batteries hold up surprisingly well, as to do the powertrains. It would be pretty sad if people were dumping their cars purely because the processors were too outdated... although I guess that happens with other electronics, too.

I get what the intent is but having used Android Automotive in several rental vehicles I just don't see what the benefit is going to be.

The most recent rental was a 2024 Volvo C40. The hard part is it's tough to know what is AA and what is Volvo. Ie the AA system showed charging rate in amps and mph but is that Volvo hardware or AA system. The system also allowed you to adjust the amperage is that Volvo or AA.

My guess is most was Volvo hardware feeding to AA. Does the MME have the hardware for that but sync 4 does not support it, maybe

Time will tell.

 

[kltye]

Interesting to see they went with Qualcomm for the SoC. Maybe this is a good departure from the current x86_64 Atom era type of SoC that powers the current version of Sync 4A.
I just wish we could upgrade the existing for the new part, but I doubt Ford will do that.

Just curious - why do you keep insisting that we're using x86 for existing Sync 4A?

 

[Hammered]

This is the updated unit promised to MME owners in china. As such I expect it to work without much fuss w/ sync 4 vehicles. The company in china will be retrofitting all MMEs sold in china with the updated unit.

 

[HuntingPudel]

I get what the intent is but having used Android Automotive in several rental vehicles I just don't see what the benefit is going to be.

The most recent rental was a 2024 Volvo C40. The hard part is it's tough to know what is AA and what is Volvo. Ie the AA system showed charging rate in amps and mph but is that Volvo hardware or AA system. The system also allowed you to adjust the amperage is that Volvo or AA.

My guess is most was Volvo hardware feeding to AA. Does the MME have the hardware for that but sync 4 does not support it, maybe

Time will tell.

Android Automotive is basically the operating system for the in-car electronics. They give access to the manufacturer all sorts of ways to get and send data. How that data is presented and handled is up to the manufacturer’s applications. ??

 

[bshaw]

Android Automotive is basically the operating system for the in-car electronics. They give access to the manufacturer all sorts of ways to get and send data. How that data is presented and handled is up to the manufacturer’s applications. ??

^^^ This ^^^

Saying you do / don’t like android auto is irrelevant. The manufacturer would have made all choices about what data is presented and how.

I suppose if android auto needs occasional reboot like sync 4, then that is something to not like and blame on the OS.

 

[dj_stang]

Interesting to see they went with Qualcomm for the SoC. Maybe this is a good departure from the current x86_64 Atom era type of SoC that powers the current version of Sync 4A.
I just wish we could upgrade the existing for the new part, but I doubt Ford will do that.

The atom in Sync 4 is a POS by today’s standards no doubt about it, and Atom has largely been a failure in the market. But honestly I’m tired of OEMs putting shitty mobile SOCs in 70-80k vehicles. Yes not all mobile processors are bad but OEMs always choose the cheapest, oldest, “””””””reliable””””””” chip that’s at least a decade out of date by the time it makes it in production. I was an engineer at a fab company that produces these “automotive grade” chips.

Tesla runs on modern AMD processors and all this consternation about using older “”””””””reliable”””””””” chips be out the window by now.

 

[kltye]

The atom in Sync 4 is a POS by today’s standards no doubt about it, and Atom has largely been a failure in the market. But honestly I’m tired of OEMs putting shitty mobile SOCs in 70-80k vehicles. Yes not all mobile processors are bad but OEMs always choose the cheapest, oldest, “””””””reliable””””””” chip that’s at least a decade out of date by the time it makes it in production. I was an engineer at a fab company that produces these “automotive grade” chips.

Tesla runs on modern AMD processors and all this consternation about using older “”””””””reliable”””””””” chips be out the window by now.

I don't think Tesla is the pinnacle of reliability - it wasn't too long ago that they were using eMMC as storage for their MCU.

There's also a reason why the compute platforms for Mars-bound vehicles aren't exactly blazing fast. I'm not saying we can't get better/faster vehicle SoCs, but I've programmed for a lot of "slow" devices and you can absolutely get a lot more performance out of the hardware (even using managed code(!)). A lot of devs these days have no idea how computers actually work at a hardware level, though I don't know if this disease has infected embedded devs as well.

 

[danielcb]

Just curious - why do you keep insisting that we're using x86 for existing Sync 4A?

When we had that workaround to load any page using the built in browser I was able to get details about the platform Sync4A is running on. As you can see, it’s a x86_64 system. Probably an Atom based one.

 

[Hammered]

When we had that workaround to load any page using the built in browser I was able to get details about the platform Sync4A is running on. As you can see, it’s a x86_64 system. Probably an Atom based one.

I believe there should be a hypervisor in it so you're not actually looking at anything besides the emulation. The chip should be qualcomm which is ARM.

 

[kltye]

When we had that workaround to load any page using the built in browser I was able to get details about the platform Sync4A is running on. As you can see, it’s a x86_64 system. Probably an Atom based one.

Browsers lie in their UAs all the time. It even says it's running "Linux" when QNX most definitely isn't. Sync 4 runs on ARM, and I doubt Ford would run two totally different CPU architectures for their infotainment.

https://www.nxp.com/company/about-n...-NXP-AND-FORD-COLLABORATE-TO-DELIVER-NEXT-GEN

 

[Hammered]

Here's the SOC block diagram at the heart of sync 4. Keep in mind that not all features are utilized

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