This bothers me...

LYTMCQ

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Wonder why Ford decided not to do the heat pump thing to help with winter usage efficiency.
It takes a while for the heat pump to work, about 20 miles which means you still need the resistive heater for what is going to be 90% of people's daily usage. The heat pump helps out on long hauls. It only changed the Tesla range by 1 mile in the EPA ratings.

Real key is going to be battery preconditioning for charging for people using public chargers. Without a means to heat the battery in cool weather, 50F and under, charging takes a lot longer. Tesla only does Preconditioning when you navigate to a Tesla charger. Hoping Ford has something similar when putting a charging destination into the nav.
 

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The heat pump helps out on long hauls. It only changed the Tesla range by 1 mile in the EPA ratings.
erm, it didn't change it at all. It is unlikely they tested a Model Y with and without, and none of the EPA test procedures include cabin heat anyway.
 

LYTMCQ

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erm, it didn't change it at all.
It did up range by 1 mile when first added. This was caught by one of the EV Media. It made sense since the heat pump only begins to have an effect after 20 miles and most driving is 24 miles on commutes so effect on range was minimal on the EPA test parameters.

Tesla preheats that battery via phase shifting the motors to create heat and waste range but it is of short duration, 1200 Wh/mi for about 5 miles to generate heat. If car is cold, the heat pump can't do it so this still occurs.
 

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It did up range by 1 mile when first added. This was caught by one of the EV Media.
Where did "the EV Media" get the range of a model Y without a heat pump? And given that cabin heat is never on during EPA test procedures, how could the method of cabin heat possibly make a difference?

Likely, the range score was adjusted around the same time as people learned it has a heat pump, and people imagined a cause and effect.
 

zhackwyatt

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Where did "the EV Media" get the range of a model Y without a heat pump? And given that cabin heat is never on during EPA test procedures, how could the method of cabin heat possibly make a difference?

Likely, the range score was adjusted around the same time as people learned it has a heat pump, and people imagined a cause and effect.
I wonder if that heat pump added any shade?
 

LYTMCQ

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Where did "the EV Media" get the range of a model Y without a heat pump?
As I remember it was the range bump that went with Tesla announcing the heat pump. Maybe it wasn't part of the Model Y when it first did the EPA tests.

And given that cabin heat is never on during EPA test procedures, how could the method of cabin heat possibly make a difference?
That is why the EPA EV tests are always off for EV's. As for how heat pump would affect range in EPA tests, increasing battery efficiency via battery temp maybe? You'd have to dig up the original article on the Tesla heat pump.
 

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As I remember it was the range bump that went with Tesla announcing the heat pump. Maybe it wasn't part of the Model Y when it first did the EPA tests.

As for how heat pump would affect range in EPA tests, increasing battery efficiency via battery temp maybe? You'd have to dig up the original article on the Tesla heat pump.
I can’t find any evidence Tesla announced the heat pump.

Tesla maintains battery temperatures using fluids, not with a heat pump. The heat pump is for the cabin. It makes no impact on EPA range. It was merely a coincidence that tesla released the manual including the high voltage components schematic (which revealed the heat pump) at roughly the same time the range rating was revised.

I’m not going to go digging for an article telling of the impossible. Might as well go look up a story of someone whose favorite sports team won after he did his ritual, and believed causation.
 
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Tesla maintains battery temperatures using fluids, not with a heat pump. The heat pump is for the cabin. It makes no impact on EPA range. It was merely a coincidence that tesla released the manual including the high voltage components schematic (which revealed the heat pump) at roughly the same time the range rating was revised.
Right on cue Jason from Engineering Explained.

TL;DR: He does confirm the heat pump is for cabin only

https://www.macheforum.com/site/threads/tesla-model-y-the-only-tesla-with-a-heat-pump.806/
 

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I think we're talking different things here. I completely agree about L1/L2 charging. Meaning you're plugging in at home (or work) for 8+ hours while the car is parked, and you don't have to check on it or go move it after 30-40 minutes. Park it and forget it. That's perfect.

What we were discussing is L3 charging at retail stations, where you have to babysit the car by either sitting in it for 30-40 minutes every week or half-week, or finding something to do nearby (like eating at the same McDonalds 50 times/yr, or whatever happens to be next to the charging station).
If you look at TESLA, they have superchargers in shopping malls. One in Toronto is at the Fairview Mall and has 20 L3 chargers. They are intended for people that cannot charge at home. They can have lunch or do some shopping at the Mall (unfortunately not now due to COVID-19).

Another option, in NEO, China. They use battery swaps and have done over half a million swaps. One interesting option is to buy a car with a smaller battery (good enough for your normal use) and rent (for as little as $10/day) a larger battery when going on trips. On returning, you swap your battery back in your car.
 

Gilles

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It takes a while for the heat pump to work, about 20 miles which means you still need the resistive heater for what is going to be 90% of people's daily usage. The heat pump helps out on long hauls. It only changed the Tesla range by 1 mile in the EPA ratings.

Real key is going to be battery preconditioning for charging for people using public chargers. Without a means to heat the battery in cool weather, 50F and under, charging takes a lot longer. Tesla only does Preconditioning when you navigate to a Tesla charger. Hoping Ford has something similar when putting a charging destination into the nav.
Why would it take time for the heat pump to work? It is an Air Conditioning in reverse. The main issue is that it does not work in very cold temperature (less than -5C or 20F).
 

LYTMCQ

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Why would it take time for the heat pump to work?
The battery and motors have to develop heat which doesn't happen until about 20 minutes. In many cases it is the reverse, the batteries are cold and need heat to regain regen, taking even longer.
 

dbsb3233

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If you look at TESLA, they have superchargers in shopping malls. One in Toronto is at the Fairview Mall and has 20 L3 chargers. They are intended for people that cannot charge at home. They can have lunch or do some shopping at the Mall (unfortunately not now due to COVID-19).

Another option, in NEO, China. They use battery swaps and have done over half a million swaps. One interesting option is to buy a car with a smaller battery (good enough for your normal use) and rent (for as little as $10/day) a larger battery when going on trips. On returning, you swap your battery back in your car.
I've thought about battery swaps before too, but I think the immense weight of that many batteries makes it impractical for passenger vehicles. That's not something people can do themselves. It would require heavy equipment and manpower, which is costly to install in many places. It would also require vehicles to be designed to easily slide or mount the battery packs in, with standardized packs. None of that exists or is likely to as manufacturers want to maximize the space and weight in the design of every model.

But I do wonder if it could be practical for certain commercial vehicles, like trucking? They usually go from a more standardized grid of truck stops. And it's a higher cost operation that might be able to justify the extra cost, especially it if keeps the vehicles running around the clock. Might be the only way to make EV trucking cost effective without having so much downtime from charging.

As for BEVs for people without home charging, there will be some that charge full time at retail stations, but I don't think that will be a big market share. It's just too time-consuming for most people. Home charging is perfect for BEVs. I think those that can't do it will just stick with ICE or PHEV.
 

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I've thought about battery swaps before too, but I think the immense weight of that many batteries makes it impractical for passenger vehicles. That's not something people can do themselves. It would require heavy equipment and manpower, which is costly to install in many places. It would also require vehicles to be designed to easily slide or mount the battery packs in, with standardized packs. None of that exists or is likely to as manufacturers want to maximize the space and weight in the design of every model.

But I do wonder if it could be practical for certain commercial vehicles, like trucking? They usually go from a more standardized grid of truck stops. And it's a higher cost operation that might be able to justify the extra cost, especially it if keeps the vehicles running around the clock. Might be the only way to make EV trucking cost effective without having so much downtime from charging.

As for BEVs for people without home charging, there will be some that charge full time at retail stations, but I don't think that will be a big market share. It's just too time-consuming for most people. Home charging is perfect for BEVs. I think those that can't do it will just stick with ICE or PHEV.
Look at NIO, they have 131 swapping stations in China. It takes 3 minutes to swap the battery.
This link has a nice video showing the automated swapping.
https://jalopnik.com/nio-has-completed-500-000-ev-battery-swaps-1843891655
 

timbop

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Look at NIO, they have 131 swapping stations in China
That sounds like a REALLY small number for a country as big as china. I would guess that one of those stations would be much more expensive to build and run than a L3 DCFC charger, so is the idea really sustainable?
 
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