The major weakness of the MME (and all non-Tesla EVs) -- reliable, robust charging network doesn't exist

[RickMachE]

I'm also not aware of any major battery storage usage currently being used by EA, EVgo or even Tesla today. This is also a future proof plan to make it more reliable and the reduce costs. I think it's a great idea to implement long term. Battery storage is outside of current plans for DCFC in the infrastructure plans across the country.

https://electrek.co/2022/10/19/electrify-america-megawatt-level-battery-storage-charging-station/

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[dbsb3233]

For a gas station to add one DCFC is cost prohibitive. The infrastructure bill will be adding 500,000 chargers over 5 years.

And gas stations are often not the most practical places for them. Although travel plazas along highway routes certainly are (not because they sell gas but because they have useful amenities like restaurants and shopping, and of course bathrooms).

It's not the gas that makes a location a good fit, it's the amenities. And those amenities can often be found at more apt places that don't sell gas, like a Walmart or Target or other big box parking lot where they already have the heavy power infrastructure needed.

 

[roamtheworld]

https://electrek.co/2022/10/19/electrify-america-megawatt-level-battery-storage-charging-station/

That is one station and is a great plan to start rolling out across the country.
Tesla is planning this as well.
Again stand by my statement "Battery storage is outside of current plans for DCFC in the infrastructure plans across the country."
If we get battery storage it is all gravy. "This is also a future proof plan to make it more reliable and the reduce costs."
Any business should have battery storage in it's long term planning.

 

[RickMachE]

That is one station and is a great plan to start rolling out across the country.
Tesla is planning this as well.
Again stand by my statement "Battery storage is outside of current plans for DCFC in the infrastructure plans across the country."
If we get battery storage it is all gravy. "This is also a future proof plan to make it more reliable and the reduce costs."
Any business should have battery storage in it's long term planning.

No, it's the first MEGAWATT-LEVEL station.

Read the 2nd sentence - With over 150 battery energy storage solutions already in place at stations around the US, Electrify America looks to demonstrate reduced stress on the electrical grid by use of these larger storage solutions and new solar canopies.

 

[roamtheworld]

And gas stations are often not the most practical places for them. Although travel plazas along highway routes certainly are (not because they sell gas but because they have useful amenities like restaurants and shopping, and of course bathrooms).

It's not the gas that makes a location a good fit, it's the amenities. And those amenities can often be found at more apt places that don't sell gas, like a Walmart or Target or other big box parking lot where they already have the heavy power infrastructure needed.

100% agree that Walmart and Targets are great locations for chargers.
The problem is they are off the major highways and the local intersections in your neighborhoods.
Gas stations are where many get other amenities. I have 6 gas stations within 6 miles of my house and they continue all the way to the major highways leading to all the great locations in the state.
Perfect for adding charging capabilities. We have been building out this model for 80 plus years. Why change?

 

[roamtheworld]

No, it's the first MEGAWATT-LEVEL station.

Read the 2nd sentence - With over 150 battery energy storage solutions already in place at stations around the US, Electrify America looks to demonstrate reduced stress on the electrical grid by use of these larger storage solutions and new solar canopies.

GREAT news! Over 150 battery storage locations is better than I expected.

Solar use is even better still.

If the infrastructure bill supports more of this it will be fantastic.

 

[dbsb3233]

https://www.profitableventure.com/cost-start-a-gas-station/
$2.5 million is the average cost to open a gas station in 2022.
How is adding 1 DCFC cost prohibitive?
https://climatebiz.com/cost-of-an-ev-charging-station/
Cost could be as low as $50K for L3 we know pricing could be much more but so let's say $250K is average.
We know gas stations don't make profits on the sale of the gas but on other services such as food.
Adding a $250K charger with additional monthly electricity cost would still show a ROI to a station owner in a reasonable amount of time. You are future proofing your business. In 10-15 years a greater portion of your customers will be driving EVs so why not build that into your business plan now.

The revenue stream for a DCFC charger is a small fraction of that for a gas pump. You easily do 10x-20x the volume of customers on a gas pump vs a charger, because the time to refuel is nearly 10x longer. The throughput is just way slower. Plus there's still not that many BEVs on the road overall. It's common for a station it sit empty for hours at a time right now. That will gradually ramp up. But remember too that 90%+ of charging takes place at home (vs 100% of gas refueling taking place at gas stations), so it will never experience anywhere close to the same volume.

 

[Blue highway]

100% agree that Walmart and Targets are great locations for chargers.
The problem is they are off the major highways and the local intersections in your neighborhoods.
Gas stations are where many get other amenities. I have 6 gas stations within 6 miles of my house and they continue all the way to the major highways leading to all the great locations in the state.
Perfect for adding charging capabilities. We have been building out this model for 80 plus years. Why change?

why change? because I don't want to spend 40 minutes in a gas station. A coffee house maybe, but a gas station.... no.

 

[Blue highway]

The revenue stream for a DCFC charger is a small fraction of that for a gas pump. You easily do 10x-20x the volume of customers on a gas pump vs a charger, because the time to refuel is nearly 10x longer. The throughput is just way slower. Plus there's still not that many BEVs on the road overall. It's common for a station it sit empty for hours at a time right now. That will gradually ramp up. But remember too that 90%+ of charging takes place at home (vs 100% of gas refueling taking place at gas stations), so it will never experience anywhere close to the same volume.

Charge time makes this really hard as a business plan. Plus customers are largely out of towners (non-regular repeat) because as you rightly point out most charging is done at home.

electricity cost per KWh	$ 0.13
sale price per KWh	$ 0.50
margin	$ 0.37
KWh av charge	40​
revenue per charge	$ 20.00
margin per charge	$ 14.80
capital cost (150kw)	$ 75,000
charges to break even	5,068
charges per day	8​	(5 hours)
days to break even	633
years	1.74

 

[AKgrampy]

My statement is "Adding a $250K charger with additional monthly electricity cost would still show a ROI to a station owner in a reasonable amount of time." and "In 10-15 years"
Gas stations can cost many more millions to open $7+ million. Millions in gas cost alone each month for a high volume station. The cost for electrical services and hardware costs for L3 charging is pretty small compared to gas over the long haul.
I stand by my statement "You are future proofing your business."

I'm also not aware of any major battery storage usage currently being used by EA, EVgo or even Tesla today. This is also a future proof plan to make it more reliable and the reduce costs. I think it's a great idea to implement long term. Battery storage is outside of current plans for DCFC in the infrastructure plans across the country.

I am not saying you are wrong and in general I agree with your goal; however, a quick calculation shows that IF there were 14 charges per day, 365 days a year, for 10 years they would have to charge $5 per charge on top of energy costs to break even. That does not include the time value of money nor any ongoing O&M costs. More importantly what “tech” these days lasts 10 - 15 years? My guess is they would need at a min an acceptable ROI in 7 years which brings it up to more like a $10 per charge fee. In reality this may be a per kWh adder but I have no idea what the average per hour per charger kWh supply rate is. Then the dealer would also be at risk for government subsidized installations having lower costs and perhaps being in better locations. On top of all of this I also believe a major issue is people can’t get gas at home so they have to stop and get gas. With a charger at home people will not stop to fuel up as often if ever for local driving. Just my thoughts and I could be way off but I do not think DCFC charging will be a money maker for some time without subsidization.

 

[dbsb3233]

100% agree that Walmart and Targets are great locations for chargers.
The problem is they are off the major highways and the local intersections in your neighborhoods.
Gas stations are where many get other amenities. I have 6 gas stations within 6 miles of my house and they continue all the way to the major highways leading to all the great locations in the state.
Perfect for adding charging capabilities. We have been building out this model for 80 plus years. Why change?

Many Walmarts/Targets are located within a few blocks of major highways (by design), making them apt traveler stops. I'm certainly not saying all stores should have them though. Especially in cities. DCFC should be mostly for travelers IMO (locals should be charging on L2 the vast majority of the time). So I'm mainly talking travel routes here, not the corner gas station in a neighborhood.

Gas is wholly different model than charging. It's a 3-4 minute task. Pop in, pump, and you're on your way. That model works for corner gas stations near where people live. But DCFC is totally different. It's a "park the car for half an hour" task, and do something else while it's charging. That doesn't fit well for a corner gas station. Especially since DCFC is mostly for travelers passing through.

 

[roamtheworld]

why change? because I don't want to spend 40 minutes in a gas station. A coffee house maybe, but a gas station.... no.

As TimCO pointed out many gas station have other amenities such as food.
Time spent charging is an issue we all are dealing with but how much time can you spend at Walmart while you charge? Never mind the extra time getting to Walmart all the time passing dozens of gas stations that could also offer charging for a fee. This isn't a gas station location should always have charging statement it is a gas stations should ALSO offer charging statement. We should have as many locations to choose from and the market will allow. After being forced to stop at a hotel with EA charger in the middle of Texas with Zero options nearby to get food makes it obvious we need choices .

 

[AKgrampy]

Charge time makes this really hard as a business plan. Plus customers are largely out of towners (non-regular repeat) because as you rightly point out most charging is done at home.

electricity cost per KWh	$ 0.13
sale price per KWh	$ 0.50
margin	$ 0.37
KWh av charge	40​
revenue per charge	$ 20.00
margin per charge	$ 14.80
capital cost (150kw)	$ 75,000
charges to break even	5,068
charges per day	8​	(5 hours)
days to break even	633
years	1.74

Basically why I hope to never have to DCFC! For some reason it just bugs me to pay 4 times more for electricity (as in your example.)

 

[sotek2345]

Wait a minute. Philly to Pittsburgh on the turnpike? Last time I looked there was only two charging locations with over 200 mile distance between.

I-76 and I-70. Plenty of chargers 50 to 100 miles apart. I just picked the ones that best fit my schedule. I do wish some hotels in Pittsburgh had L2 charging though. Would make the trip much nicer. I have to go there every few months for work.

 

[dmastro]

I think the right term is "uninformed". The information is out there for the taking. In some places it may be challenging, in others it's not. Want to go to see Mount Rushmore? Forget about it. Want to go see the Grand Canyon? Plan carefully (DC charging is going in currently). Want to drive from Michigan to Florida, over 1,400 miles each way? NON-ISSUE.

We need to get to the point where we don't need to be as informed, I think is the point that doesn't seem to be sinking in on this forum.

I respect that there is a very small percentage of drivers who are willing to (and enjoy) go through the hassle of researching all the potential EV stops on a route, using multiple apps, and all of the other hoops to jump through, but most drivers aren't.

Further, it doesn't have to be this way. Tesla has shown the way with a network of fast, reliable, convenient chargers. Their built-in nav programs a route with optimized charging stops down to the %. The nav screen also lets you tap to drill down to each charging station to see how many stalls are available in real time, what the charging speed is, peak times for the charging station, and then preconditions your battery while you're on your way. It's plug and play, and approachable for the 99% (or at least most of the 99%). Other manufacturers have the template in front of them to make EV ownership much simpler.

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