Is the Mach-E really 7 years behind Tesla?

Jolteon

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So really I talked to a few more people this morning. The cost is around 800 to 1,500 for this in the model y.

If your someone that lives in sunny Cali or the lower states that never really see below 45 degrees. Then it is not needed.

If your someone that lives with extreme winters where it is 20 degrees and below. It's not going to make much of a difference.

But the people who are in the middle of this could save about 8 miles of range per 100 miles. so just say 25 miles of range on a 300-mile battery.

The better option would be to sell it as an add-on.

The real truth about EV cars is in extremely cold conditions your range can be cut almost in half.

Now the mache suppose to have a better design for cold weather. We are all waiting to find out what percentage more that is.
Most of my winter driving is around 30-45F. I don't usually go on road trips in the true ice and snow below freezing days. That's exactly why I wish I had the heat pump.

No system is perfect, of course.

I just wish the Mach-E had an add-on heat pump optional from the beginning.
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JCHLi

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Of course. That's true in every EV. You can save energy beyond the heat pump's savings over a PTC if you don't use it... obviously.
I'm not sure what you are responding to, obviously.

My comment was regarding another comment about using a supplemental heater. Just pointed out, that is basically what is recommended.
 

efisher

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I'm just curious about how it all works in practice. My concern when I hear about this heat pump is reliably. First, if it uses the drive motor inefficiently to produce heat, I worry about the wear and tear on the system. Second, the overall complexity of the system is concerning. If a standalone resistance heater were to go out, it would be a fairly easy and inexpensive fix, if you burn your drive motors up, not so much. If you need to work on a simple AC with one loop, it's a lot simpler compared to one with multiple loops running from the motors, battery, cabin, etc.
I suspect that the complexity increment of moving to a heat pump while real may not be huge. Many of the functions handled by the heat pump/octovalve combination are being done in any modern dedicated EV. (Lessons learned from the old Nessan Leaf.) While the Mach E does not have a heat pump it does have an AC compressor. It also incorporates systems to manage the temperature of the battery and it does seem to have subsystems that wherever possible scavenge heat from the battery and motor. However, a heat pump is more complex than a simple AC compressor and the octovalve does impose a single point of failure and increased complexity. It is one system doing four separate things, whereas the Mach E has separate dedicated systems.

Depending how you look at it this is either simpler or more complex. On the one hand, you have replaced four systems with on, on the other hand this one system is far more complex than any of the individual systems that it replaces. The advantage is it can reduce the cold weather range penalty.

There are two questions: Are four simple systems better than one complex system and how important is the cold weather range advantage. Keep in mind, that it does not eliminate the cold weather problem, it just reduces it.

I think that overall, the heat pump/octovalve solution is a good one as long as it proves to be reliable over the long term. Since I tend to purchase and keep cars for a long time, I would hope it can stand up to at least ten years of use.
 

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The diagram is the patent, not the implementation. Musk does not mention a "resistive heater" per se. he mentions a "local heating loop" within the heat pump itself. It may or may not be a resistive heater or a local loop in the heat pump to heat refrigerant quickly. Without tearing down a heat pump nobody knows, or at least I have seen no reference anywhere. Regardless, Musk also mentions it is for initial quick cabin heating only, before the main heat pump loop starts producing heat. In normal usage, if it is too cold for either the heat pump to be effective or for the motors/battery to produce waste heat, the motors are operated efficiently so that they provide the required waste heat. This takes the place of a dedicated resistive heater, saving weight and complexity.

The 3 also runs the motors inefficiently as needed, but only to heat the battery. There is no means--yet--to use waste heat from the motors/battery to heat the cabin. The only way to heat the cabin in the 3 is with the dedicated resistive heater. That of course is about to change, as design changes in delivered 3s are obviously meant to prepare for inclusion of the Y's HVAC system..
 

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Regardless of what is said here, the 2021 non-GT Mach E's will NOT have a heat pump and the Y's will. Under many conditions the Y will drain the battery less than the Mach E to heat the cabin. No amount of bickering back and forth will change that.
Please, i hope you don't take this as bickering but as discussion. I respect your input here.

The E may not have a heat pump early on, but that doesn't mean it won't contain some of the same advantages that the Y's HVAC system has. I've not seen any actual discussion of the E's HVAC here, do we have any real information on that yet? For instance, it's entirely possible that even without a heat pump Ford engineers have included a means to utilize waste heat from the motors/battery to heat the cabin. That would have significant benefits in mild to cold weather. Yes, the Y has a great HVAC system, but it is too early to say whether or not it is superior to what Ford engineers have come up with.

timbop is entirely correct in that the Y HVAC has been beat to death. It's a great system, yes. But that does not mean that Ford engineers don't have a trick or two up their sleeves as well. My own guess is that they do, and that we all have some pleasant surprises in store when Sandy Munro tears down the Mach-e. With all the enthusiasm the Mach-e team has shown, I just don't believe that they've sat back on their laurels and done nothing innovative.
 


efisher

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I read the article that you referenced and while I have no doubt that there are certain circumstances where the heat pump will increase the Model Y's available range, I think you could argue that there will be more scenarios where the heat pump provides no advantage or even some where there is a range loss. In particular, the heat pump will offer no advantage when you are not using the heat at all. I would also say that if the temperature is very low, (below 10 degrees F,) A resistive heater will do just as well. The fact that you are carrying around an extra 40 lbs. of weight all of the time even when the heat is not being used can only hurt your range in warmer conditions.
At the risk of sounding pedantic, I should have said the heat pump will never increase the available range, it will just reduce the range reduction caused by cold weather.
 

efisher

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Most of my winter driving is around 30-45F. I don't usually go on road trips in the true ice and snow below freezing days. That's exactly why I wish I had the heat pump.

No system is perfect, of course.

I just wish the Mach-E had an add-on heat pump optional from the beginning.
Me too. As long as it is reliable.
 

Raymondjram

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MACH E hasn't been officially rated yet. Better yet what will the real world values be? Will have to wait another 9 months or so.
Not that long. I see the first official rating by December of this year (just two months).
 

Raymondjram

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Few people are gonna want to spend 45 minutes at a dealership wasting time while the car slowly charges. That would be like sitting there bored while waiting for an oil change. No one likes that.
I read a science fiction book at my dealer while waiting for my Fusion Hybrid annual oil and filter change. And that is the ONLY schedule maintenence it ever needs. As for chaging I rather do it overnight at my home while I sleep. As I have posted before, driving for over the EV range and searching for a charger on the road is stupid and inefficient.
 

Raymondjram

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Or they see enough market available just for people charging at home that don't need retail chargers (except for the rare road trip).
I agree that almost every EV owner will charge at home or where they park. As a child, I lived in NYC in apartment buildings and we NEVER needed a car. Some other neighbors who had cars had to pay a monthly parking space, so that is where a Level 2 station should be installed.

So if you can park your EV safely, you can charge it, even at Level 1 because all parking buildings have electricity and outlets.
 

Raymondjram

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Just rent a hybrid. It is cheper that paying extra battery for just one trip!
 

Raymondjram

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It can because not every EV owner will drive over their range. I prefer driving under my range and charging at home where it is safer. Driving over the range is like driving with less than 4 gallons of fuel and risking getting stuck out with no gasilone station for tens of miles.

And as I am repeating myself, if you have to drive farther for a special journey, just rent a hybrid.
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