Is the Mach-E really 7 years behind Tesla?

[mark360]

But an average of what? The average over a 0%-100% charge? 10%-100%? 10%-80%? Or even just a peak 10-minute slice?

Those would all have different averages because of the charge curve.

I suspect you're right though in assuming it's probably something like a a typical near-full road trip charge (like maybe 10%-80%).

yes, worst case would be 70% to 100% which would probably take 30 minutes alone.

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[silverelan]

But an average of what? The average over a 0%-100% charge? 10%-100%? 10%-80%? Or even just a peak 10-minute slice?

Those would all have different averages because of the charge curve.

I suspect you're right though in assuming it's probably something like a a typical near-full road trip charge (like maybe 10%-80%).

It's the average at the peak charge rate of 150kW.

The real metric is the 10% -> 80% charge time of 45 mins. 70% of the SoC is about 189 miles of range. If it takes 45 mins to get 189 miles of range, then you're getting on average over the charging cycle of 4.2 miles for every minute you're plugged in (1 mile every 15 seconds!).

 

[dbsb3233]

It's the average at the peak charge rate of 150kW.

The real metric is the 10% -> 80% charge time of 45 mins. 70% of the SoC is about 189 miles of range. If it takes 45 mins to get 189 miles of range, then you're getting on average over the charging cycle of 4.2 miles for every minute you're plugged in (1 mile every 15 seconds!).

"average at the peak charge rate" is the same contradiction in terms that Ford uses, since "average" and "peak" are opposites of each other. That's where what they're saying is confusing and open to interpretation.

I'd agree though that the "10-80% in 45 minutes" is much clearer. They should have just left it at that rather than putting out the far more nebulous "47 miles in 10 minutes".

Your numbers are a bit off though. They applied that 45 minute stat to the 300 mile version (RWD ER). 70% of 300 is 210. 45 minutes to get 210 is 4.66 miles per minute... which rounds off to 47 miles per 10 minutes. Bingo! That must be where they got the 47. Now it all makes sense.

 

[dbsb3233]

That also gives us some insight to the charge curve. Assuming they program about a 10% safety reserve in the BMS, that would mean 90 kWh useful. 70% of that is 63 kWh added in 45 minutes on a 150 kw charger.

63 kWh in 45 minutes is only a 47.25 kW average rate. That's well below the 150 kw peak. There must be some pretty serious curve drop. Even 15 minutes of 150kw would add 37.5kWh of that, leaving only 25.5 left to add over the next 30 minutes.

 

[jlauro]

That wouldn't do much good. Where people need chargers are between cities on road trips, and at home.

Few people are gonna want to spend 45 minutes at a dealership wasting time while the car slowly charges. That would be like sitting there bored while waiting for an oil change. No one likes that.

I disagree. With the range, you will drive past many cities that have dealerships, sometimes multiple dealerships in the city. Looking a route, there are more locations than EA and Tesla superchargers combined. Hard to find spots that dealers are not within 50 miles of each other.

My Ford dealer has a restraint next door. I can't imagine that not being true for at least half of them.

I am in a small town, under 20k people, and they are installing 3 fast chargers.

 

[dbsb3233]

I disagree. With the range, you will drive past many cities that have dealerships, sometimes multiple dealerships in the city. Looking a route, there are more locations than EA and Tesla superchargers combined. Hard to find spots that dealers are not within 50 miles of each other.

My Ford dealer has a restraint next door. I can't imagine that not being true for at least half of them.

I am in a small town, under 20k people, and they are installing 3 fast chargers.

Chargers by restaurants (especially along highways) make more sense. That was even the point you just made - that it would be useful at your dealership because there's a restaurant next door for people to utilize that hour while charging.

But in the absence of something useful to kill time at nearby, dealerships are a poor fit. Who's gonna want to waste an hour sitting in the showroom rather than a restaurant or mall? Or much better -- their home or workplace?

 

[jlauro]

But in the absence of something useful to kill time at nearby, dealerships are a poor fit. Who's gonna want to waste an hour sitting in the showroom rather than a restaurant or mall? Or much better -- their home or workplace?

Someone who wants to drive a mile off the highway or expressway instead of being standard and put in 15-30 minutes of charge to get to a more entertaining location to charge at instead of having to go 50 miles out of their way for a EA network charger.

 

[jlauro]

Not sure why you think you have to wait until you are full. Just take a 10 minute break and add 47 miles of range if you don't want to be stuck at a dealer for a long time, after all several dealers are likely on your way.

 

[dbsb3233]

Someone who wants to drive a mile off the highway or expressway instead of being standard and put in 15-30 minutes of charge to get to a more entertaining location to charge at instead of having to go 50 miles out of their way for a EA network charger.

But that doesn't address the placement. That's my point. Yes, road trippers need enough chargers. That's a given. And companies like EA are addressing that, usually in logical places.

Dealerships aren't usually very logical places, IMO. For the reasons I stated. And if that's the best that can be done to provide chargers for people (places where they have to sit and twiddle their thumbs for an hour), it's gonna hamper BEV expansion.

 

[dbsb3233]

Not sure why you think you have to wait until you are full. Just take a 10 minute break and add 47 miles of range if you don't want to be stuck at a dealer for a long time, after all several dealers are likely on your way.

I doubt there's gonna be many dealerships that have DCFC chargers, especially open to the public. More likely L2. If any at all open to the public rather than just for their internal use, or reserved for their customers.

And in the broader sense, most of the people that need public charging will be road trippers. (Locals will typically be charging at home or work.) And road trippers typically need a full (or near-full) charge at each stop along their route.

 

[hybrid2bev]

Not sure why you think you have to wait until you are full. Just take a 10 minute break and add 47 miles of range if you don't want to be stuck at a dealer for a long time, after all several dealers are likely on your way.

So on a level 2 dealership charger your looking at 20-30 miles per hour of charging. I think the best you could find would be a 25kw charger at a dealer, most will be 7kw. So to add 47 miles of range you're probably looking at about 30 minutes on a 25kw charger. If the dealer has a regular L2 charger it would be more like 90 to 120 minutes.

I think dealers are going to be opportunity or emergency chargers for most people.

 

[agoldman]

The interior looks a little plain, n

Dealerships aren't usually very logical places, IMO. For the reasons I stated. And if that's the best that can be done to provide chargers for people (places where they have to sit and twiddle their thumbs for an hour), it's gonna hamper BEV expansion.

Sounds like torture to me.

 

[silverelan]

Most dealerships that I have seen with a level 3 charger have been with the 24-25 kW wall chargers. These things seem to be pretty common at Chevrolet dealerships and Harley-Davidson locations.

 

[dbsb3233]

I don't mean the restaurant itself doing it, I mean a charging company choosing locations that make sense, like near restaurants.

And why would someone that just bought a new vehicle keep going back to the dealership (unless their vehicle needed service, which means it'll be in the service bay anyway)? I only go to a dealership if (1) I'm buying a new car, or (2) I'm getting the car serviced.

What would make a range-anxious first time BEV buyer feel more secure?... chargers at places where they're actually most useful. And that's not dealerships, IMO. FINDING them isn't a problem. If you have a BEV, you almost surely have access to easy apps that show where chargers are located.

Locating chargers at dealerships is no more useful to most people than putting them at car washes. In fact, dealerships are one of the LEAST useful places I can think to locate them. Near a restaurant, or a store, or a school, or even a park are all better places, as there's at least something halfway decent to kill an hour doing.

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