Is the Mach-E really 7 years behind Tesla?

Nak

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Have we now? I guess if you don't really have an EV you might think so from the news. You claim to live in the Portland area--even though you didn't go to the PDX auto show to see the Mach-e--so WE haven't seen full stations and lines. That's been down in California for holidays. And why is L2 charging overnight? If you really had a M 3 as you claim, you'd know you can pick up 60-80 miles of range at dinner. More than enough to see you to the next L3 charger.

Another swing and a miss for you. People with EVs don't charge to full. They just charge enough to get to their next stop with a reserve.

See, this again just shows how flawed your thought process is. The hotels are going to have to? Why? Why should they care that you want to charge quickly? What's in it for them? They can attract all the EV drivers they want with an L2 charger that costs a small fraction of an L3 charger. See, businesses are in business to make money, not to help people who feel entitled. If you really had a Model 3--like you claim--you'd know that an hour or two on an L2 is all you need.

Why are you claiming to own a Model 3, when clearly you don't? You know only those things about driving an EV that you can read on the internet. You have all the range anxiety of a person who has never owned an EV. You know remarkably little about Model 3's--or any EV. You've claimed things about the Model 3 that anyone who had driven one for 15 minutes would know to be ridiculously false. You claim to be excited about the Mach-e, but when an opportunity arises to see one you ignore it. You must have read "The Hobbit", and been terrified during the scene when the sun came up...
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The hotels are going to have to? Why? Why should they care that you want to charge quickly? What's in it for them? They can attract all the EV drivers they want with an L2 charger that costs a small fraction of an L3 charger. See, businesses are in business to make money, not to help people who feel entitled.
Exactly. There's a huge difference between installing L2 chargers and L3. A hotel is pretty unlikely to go to the extra expense of installing (and maintaining) L3. To justify that, you pretty much have to become a full retail charging station so you can get customers stopping in round the clock (not your hotel customers, but the general public). Few are going to have interest in that, any more than a dealership is.

There's a lot of wishful thinking going around expecting businesses that exist for one purpose to suddenly get into the business of becoming retail L3 charging stations open to anyone. I get that some people *want* that to happen, but it's illogical and unrealistic. With rare exception, retail L3 charging will be offered by those in the business of L3 retail charging (like EA). Some of those may happen to be next to hotels, and that's fine. But that's not the hotel doing it. What makes sense for some hotels to offer for their customers is L2, because that fits their customers' needs (and is far more affordable to install and operate). Hotels aren't generally gonna want their limited parking lots being taken over with L3 charging station traffic.

Some large businesses with large parking lots will contract with charger companies to provide space for L3. We already see Walmart doing that with their EA partnership. Places like shopping malls and grocery stores may do that. But hotels are a poor choice for that. An L3 customer is generally going to want a place nearby where they can kill 30 minutes. That's eating a meal, or doing a little shopping. Not renting a hotel room.
 
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Have a Performance 3 in California and -- though I wasn't on site -- believe we had lines when a portion of I5 was closed cutting off a bunch of SCs. Truthfully the Tesla experience has been great and once you get out on the road range anxiety becomes something of a myth.
 

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In 2 1/2 years of ownership, I’ve yet to have to wait in line at a SC. It’s an easy matter to check your app and see how many chargers are available at a given SC site. If they’re full, depending upon your location, you plan for a different location. Granted, with the advent of the 3, chargers are becoming somewhat more crowded, but additional SC locations are coming on line. We just had a new one open up on LI a few weeks ago.
 

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I've only once waited for a Chademo charger. It was a location in a busy shopping/residential complex. 15 minutes after arrival it was available.
 


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The Verge: Tesla's New Self-Driving Chip Is Here

So, I've been pondering this thread for quite a while. Obviously, the idea of Tesla being '7 years ahead' or the Mach-E being '7 years behind' could be a bit of a stretch, however, I have to say, being a Ford Fanboy who owns a GT Mustang and owns Ford Stock as well as Tesla, I do believe Tesla is ahead of others. And all of the items in this thread about Tesla's good and bad are true.
Their charging Network, battery design, more efficient electric motors, software, hardware (see article link above), innovative manufacturing techniques like for the Model Y with the giant stamper thingy and their acquisition of Maxwell for their capacitor technology... I do think Tesla is far ahead. Now are others 7 year behind? I'm not sure. If any company can get an EV to market successfully it's Ford, with the current tech that isn't Tesla and by marshaling the power of the Mustang Brand, they can.

BUT, if you go back to 2018 on Youtube and you watch the videos of Autoline After Hours (Sandy Munro on Autoline After Hours and Tesla's Computer at roughly 15:41, ) with Sandy Munro, the guy who tears down cars to see how their made and then sells the data and cost breakdowns to other car companies and such, he equates the computer in even the first iterations of the Model 3 to being like something out of an 'F-22 Raptor Fighter Jet'. And he talks about the advantage it brings to being designed in house.
Then add to it this new gen board in the article the HW3 board, that is supposedly 21 times as powerful as the board in the Autoline video, and this is where I do believe Tesla is head and shoulders above everyone else.

Ford can't, doesn't and won't just swap out our car's computer with a newer computer, at no cost to us for us to have the newest circuit board.
And think of the SYNC situation... that has been a troubled UI from the beginning but from the start, Tesla in the S, X, 3 and Y has pretty much nailed an awesome UI right out of the gate. And what problems there were with 'lag' and stuff like that were corrected with software OTA updates but more importantly, most of the cars were brought in and had the old boards swapped for new processors to make the evolution of the cars possible.

I am glad Ford has the Mach-E being OTA Update ready, but I just doubt, as the software needs of those OTAs increase, I doubt Ford has the ability to have the same 'on the fly' swap out idea or program like Tesla... at no extra cost to us. So, it just worries me to a point, that yes, it's nice to have OTAUs, but what if we get to the point like with PCs and later Windows Platforms, where the newest software just can't be handled by the 'first gen Mach-E computers'... then you're up the creek, and if you were a Tesla owner... they just swap out the old chip for the new and on you go... with us we have to buy a new car.
We'd think Ford would have thought of this but I doubt they can have a similar business model to just 'give away' new chips as software demands increase.

Just a thought. But in general, Tesla is the undisputed leader, despite some of their faults.
 

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The Verge: Tesla's New Self-Driving Chip Is Here

So, I've been pondering this thread for quite a while. Obviously, the idea of Tesla being '7 years ahead' or the Mach-E being '7 years behind' could be a bit of a stretch, however, I have to say, being a Ford Fanboy who owns a GT Mustang and owns Ford Stock as well as Tesla, I do believe Tesla is ahead of others. And all of the items in this thread about Tesla's good and bad are true.
Their charging Network, battery design, more efficient electric motors, software, hardware (see article link above), innovative manufacturing techniques like for the Model Y with the giant stamper thingy and their acquisition of Maxwell for their capacitor technology... I do think Tesla is far ahead. Now are others 7 year behind? I'm not sure. If any company can get an EV to market successfully it's Ford, with the current tech that isn't Tesla and by marshaling the power of the Mustang Brand, they can.

BUT, if you go back to 2018 on Youtube and you watch the videos of Autoline After Hours (Sandy Munro on Autoline After Hours and Tesla's Computer at roughly 15:41, ) with Sandy Munro, the guy who tears down cars to see how their made and then sells the data and cost breakdowns to other car companies and such, he equates the computer in even the first iterations of the Model 3 to being like something out of an 'F-22 Raptor Fighter Jet'. And he talks about the advantage it brings to being designed in house.
Then add to it this new gen board in the article the HW3 board, that is supposedly 21 times as powerful as the board in the Autoline video, and this is where I do believe Tesla is head and shoulders above everyone else.

Ford can't, doesn't and won't just swap out our car's computer with a newer computer, at no cost to us for us to have the newest circuit board.
And think of the SYNC situation... that has been a troubled UI from the beginning but from the start, Tesla in the S, X, 3 and Y has pretty much nailed an awesome UI right out of the gate. And what problems there were with 'lag' and stuff like that were corrected with software OTA updates but more importantly, most of the cars were brought in and had the old boards swapped for new processors to make the evolution of the cars possible.

I am glad Ford has the Mach-E being OTA Update ready, but I just doubt, as the software needs of those OTAs increase, I doubt Ford has the ability to have the same 'on the fly' swap out idea or program like Tesla... at no extra cost to us. So, it just worries me to a point, that yes, it's nice to have OTAUs, but what if we get to the point like with PCs and later Windows Platforms, where the newest software just can't be handled by the 'first gen Mach-E computers'... then you're up the creek, and if you were a Tesla owner... they just swap out the old chip for the new and on you go... with us we have to buy a new car.
We'd think Ford would have thought of this but I doubt they can have a similar business model to just 'give away' new chips as software demands increase.

Just a thought. But in general, Tesla is the undisputed leader, despite some of their faults.
Tesla charges $7,000 to have access to that new computer. They are shipping vehicles with the new chip, but again it's a $7,000 option. Ford is shipping the Mach E with their new Copilot system without charging that ludicrous price. The Mach E system is a hands off system, which I prefer more.

I own a Tesla M3 and watched sandy's tear down and analysis of the Model 3. He had a lot of praises for the technology of the car.

Where the rubber meets the road is how Tesla is taking advantage of that Technology. Currently, they are still in level 2 autonomy. Some would say 2.5. Autonomy ranges from level 1 to level 5, and for robo taxi's you need a level 5 autonomous service - otherwise someone has to monitor the cars function at all times. I will say that AP is a very nice feature, and navigate on AP is very handy on long road trips, but it isn't near as valuable as people make it out to be.

Tesla's progression on AP has been painfully slow, and using the AP in car makes you realize that the vehicle is truly no where close to level 4 or level 5 autonomy. Level 3 is maybe a year or two away, but the progression gets more difficult the higher up you go. It has taken Tesla 8 years to get to level 2.5, I imagine it's at least another 8 years until level 4.

Levels of Autonomy:

Level One – Driver Assistance
At this level, the vehicle can assist with some functions, but the driver still handles all accelerating, braking, and monitoring of the surrounding environment. Think of a car that brakes a little extra for you when you get too close to another car on the highway.

Level Two – Partial Automation
Most automakers are currently developing vehicles at this level, where the vehicle can assist with steering or acceleration functions and allow the driver to disengage from some of their tasks. The driver must always be ready to take control of the vehicle and it still responsible for most safety-critical functions and all monitoring of the environment.

Level Three – Conditional Automation
The biggest leap from Level 2 to Levels 3 and above is that starting at Level 3, the vehicle itself controls all monitoring of the environment (using sensors like LiDAR). The driver’s attention is still critical at this level but can disengage from “safety-critical” functions like braking and leave it to the technology when conditions are safe. Many current Level 3 vehicles require no human attention to the road at speeds under 37 miles per hour.

Audi and others have announced Level 3 autonomous cars to launch in 2018. An autonomous vehicle expert at Ford noted that they plan to take the company straight to Level 4, saying “We’re not going to ask the driver to instantaneously intervene—that’s not a fair proposition.”

Level Four – High Automation
At Levels 4 and 5, the vehicle is capable of steering, braking, accelerating, monitoring the vehicle and roadway as well as responding to events, determining when to change lanes, turn, and use signals.

At Level 4, the autonomous driving system would first notify the driver when conditions are safe, and only then does the driver switch the vehicle into this mode. It cannot determine between more dynamic driving situations like traffic jams or a merge onto the highway.

Level Five – Complete Automation
Last and least (in terms of human involvement), is Level 5 autonomy. This level of autonomous driving requires absolutely no human attention. There is no need for pedals, brakes, or a steering wheel, as the autonomous vehicle system controls all critical tasks, monitoring of the environment and identification of unique driving conditions like traffic jams.
 

mark360

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Waymo has had level 4 driverless vehicles for the past two years now. The CEO has stated that true level 5 autonomy may never exist, with level 4 being the max. Waymo is years and years ahead of Tesla.
 

Dmcerm

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Tesla charges $7,000 to have access to that new computer. They are shipping vehicles with the new chip, but again it's a $7,000 option. Ford is shipping the Mach E with their new Copilot system without charging that ludicrous price. The Mach E system is a hands off system, which I prefer more.

I own a Tesla M3 and watched sandy's tear down and analysis of the Model 3. He had a lot of praises for the technology of the car.

Where the rubber meets the road is how Tesla is taking advantage of that Technology. Currently, they are still in level 2 autonomy. Some would say 2.5. Autonomy ranges from level 1 to level 5, and for robo taxi's you need a level 5 autonomous service - otherwise someone has to monitor the cars function at all times. I will say that AP is a very nice feature, and navigate on AP is very handy on long road trips, but it isn't near as valuable as people make it out to be.

Tesla's progression on AP has been painfully slow, and using the AP in car makes you realize that the vehicle is truly no where close to level 4 or level 5 autonomy. Level 3 is maybe a year or two away, but the progression gets more difficult the higher up you go. It has taken Tesla 8 years to get to level 2.5, I imagine it's at least another 8 years until level 4.

Levels of Autonomy:

Level One – Driver Assistance
At this level, the vehicle can assist with some functions, but the driver still handles all accelerating, braking, and monitoring of the surrounding environment. Think of a car that brakes a little extra for you when you get too close to another car on the highway.

Level Two – Partial Automation
Most automakers are currently developing vehicles at this level, where the vehicle can assist with steering or acceleration functions and allow the driver to disengage from some of their tasks. The driver must always be ready to take control of the vehicle and it still responsible for most safety-critical functions and all monitoring of the environment.

Level Three – Conditional Automation
The biggest leap from Level 2 to Levels 3 and above is that starting at Level 3, the vehicle itself controls all monitoring of the environment (using sensors like LiDAR). The driver’s attention is still critical at this level but can disengage from “safety-critical” functions like braking and leave it to the technology when conditions are safe. Many current Level 3 vehicles require no human attention to the road at speeds under 37 miles per hour.

Audi and others have announced Level 3 autonomous cars to launch in 2018. An autonomous vehicle expert at Ford noted that they plan to take the company straight to Level 4, saying “We’re not going to ask the driver to instantaneously intervene—that’s not a fair proposition.”

Level Four – High Automation
At Levels 4 and 5, the vehicle is capable of steering, braking, accelerating, monitoring the vehicle and roadway as well as responding to events, determining when to change lanes, turn, and use signals.

At Level 4, the autonomous driving system would first notify the driver when conditions are safe, and only then does the driver switch the vehicle into this mode. It cannot determine between more dynamic driving situations like traffic jams or a merge onto the highway.

Level Five – Complete Automation
Last and least (in terms of human involvement), is Level 5 autonomy. This level of autonomous driving requires absolutely no human attention. There is no need for pedals, brakes, or a steering wheel, as the autonomous vehicle system controls all critical tasks, monitoring of the environment and identification of unique driving conditions like traffic jams.
So Tesla *does* charge for the new computer? I thought they were swapping them out for free?
Well I'll certainly take your word on it. So maybe they don't "charge" to swap the computer out, but then you have to pay for the FSD Software Upgrade? Maybe that's where I was lead astray.

And 'shipping the Mach-E with the Co-Pilot 360 without charging the ludicrous price'... but isn't this the root of my query? At some point, the Mach-E will have to have upgraded hardware once OTAUs become too big for the current computers to run properly?
I guess I'm also just worried about the SYNC 4 UI since it's been so quirky from the start, and while the UI in the Mach-E looks good now, I wonder what our longevity we'll have.
 

mark360

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So Tesla *does* charge for the new computer? I thought they were swapping them out for free?
Well I'll certainly take your word on it. So maybe they don't "charge" to swap the computer out, but then you have to pay for the FSD Software Upgrade? Maybe that's where I was lead astray.

And 'shipping the Mach-E with the Co-Pilot 360 without charging the ludicrous price'... but isn't this the root of my query? At some point, the Mach-E will have to have upgraded hardware once OTAUs become too big for the current computers to run properly?
I guess I'm also just worried about the SYNC 4 UI since it's been so quirky from the start, and while the UI in the Mach-E looks good now, I wonder what our longevity we'll have.
Yes, they ship the cars with the computer but charge $7,000 to "use" the computer, really it's just vaporware until level 3 comes out.

The Mach E will have OTA updates, but it is still unknown how well their autopilot system will work. It is reported the Mach E will come with 8+ cameras, LIDAR sensors, and future updates to improve their autopilot.

They have been very quiet about it though. Not sure if that is good or bad. Likely it won't be level 4 autonomous vehicle, but Tesla is still very far from that capability. They have the lead, but nothing is stopping Ford or any other automaker from catching up quickly. Ford has Argo AI
 

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Waymo has had level 4 driverless vehicles for the past two years now. The CEO has stated that true level 5 autonomy may never exist, with level 4 being the max. Waymo is years and years ahead of Tesla.
And yet, Tesla with its camera based system is in the market for people to buy at level 2 or 2.5 or whatever... so, it's like Tesla is still ahead because of their real-world, on-the-fly incorporation of their system in cars, and collecting all the data to make the system better etc., meanwhile Waymo is always shown with tons of bulky equipment loaded on mini vans...

So I guess it's just how we look at things.

As @mark360 mentioned regarding Ford's CP360 being a 'hands off system', I guess as opposed to Tesla's AP type system. I mean, I've been reading a lot on CP360 and it seems to be capable of doing most of the same things as whatever version of Tesla's AP can do... and I'm sure the Tesla Boards would go on for years telling me how Tesla is 'way better' than CP360, but at least it still looks pretty advanced.
 

mark360

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And yet, Tesla with its camera based system is in the market for people to buy at level 2 or 2.5 or whatever... so, it's like Tesla is still ahead because of their real-world, on-the-fly incorporation of their system in cars, and collecting all the data to make the system better etc., meanwhile Waymo is always shown with tons of bulky equipment loaded on mini vans...

So I guess it's just how we look at things.

As @mark360 mentioned regarding Ford's CP360 being a 'hands off system', I guess as opposed to Tesla's AP type system. I mean, I've been reading a lot on CP360 and it seems to be capable of doing most of the same things as whatever version of Tesla's AP can do... and I'm sure the Tesla Boards would go on for years telling me how Tesla is 'way better' than CP360, but at least it still looks pretty advanced.
If I'm not mistaken, pretty much every automaker has level 2.0. Tesla is in the 2.0 category as well, but some say "2.5" which I think is fair because they do have an advantage.

My Model 3 will change lanes, take on ramps, off ramps, navigate based off the GPS, all for me. Albeit, it's not perfect, but it can do all of that. It just requires you always keep one hand on the wheel, as there is a nag ever 15 seconds otherwise to shake it. I can put a destination on my GPS and use the feature called "Navigate on Autopilot" which does the above, and when I set a speed will actually change lanes to go around slower cars and take off ramps when an exit is coming up (based off GPS directions).

Ford's Copilot system has lane centering, but how well that works in poor lighting and poor lane markings is unknown to me. I can only comment on Tesla's system. There is no reason Ford can't incorporate this same system in the Mach E. They will have the cameras and one step above with LIDAR.

Tesla's AP does a darn good job of staying centered in the lane if lane markings get light, or are faded. The only time it gets tricked up is if a lane widens substantially, where it doesn't really know how to position the vehicle in the lane. Additionally, it merges quickly and you have settings for adjusting how aggressive the AP responds. It has certainly improved over the last two years, but it's progression is slow.

There are geofenced highways for using Navigate on AP, where it will change lanes and do all that for you. That is still geofenced to pretty much interstates and main highways.

On backroads Tesla's AP will not go faster than the speed limit for keeping you centered in the lane.
 

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So Tesla *does* charge for the new computer? I thought they were swapping them out for free?
Well I'll certainly take your word on it. So maybe they don't "charge" to swap the computer out, but then you have to pay for the FSD Software Upgrade? Maybe that's where I was lead astray.

And 'shipping the Mach-E with the Co-Pilot 360 without charging the ludicrous price'... but isn't this the root of my query? At some point, the Mach-E will have to have upgraded hardware once OTAUs become too big for the current computers to run properly?
I guess I'm also just worried about the SYNC 4 UI since it's been so quirky from the start, and while the UI in the Mach-E looks good now, I wonder what our longevity we'll have.
Owners on the Tesla forum have reported on needing to pay for hardware changes. I can't remember if this just for the x and s models or when one wants to add fsd or other.
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