Is the Mach-E really 7 years behind Tesla?

GregM

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Yes, they ship the cars with the computer but charge $7,000 to "use" the computer, really it's just vaporware until level 3 comes out.

The Mach E will have OTA updates, but it is still unknown how well their autopilot system will work. It is reported the Mach E will come with 8+ cameras, LIDAR sensors, and future updates to improve their autopilot.

They have been very quiet about it though. Not sure if that is good or bad. Likely it won't be level 4 autonomous vehicle, but Tesla is still very far from that capability. They have the lead, but nothing is stopping Ford or any other automaker from catching up quickly. Ford has Argo AI
My understanding is that Ford has put in over $1B in RD&E for the last few years - and just because they didn't have a Tesla-like car on the market doesn't mean that they are 7+ years behind. Plus LG Chem has been in the EV battery space since '99...so I really wonder if it is just Tesla Fanboy propaganda...time will tell. Ford is risking a lot with a Mustang tagged first out all out EV - and I am sure they went to town on reverse engineering all other EV models. First to market doesn't necessarily mean best in market. Come September, we will see. Ford has seen the criticism about Audi and Jag - they have felt the criticism about their own recent releases and related short-falls...they ought not make those same miss-steps here.

I am left to wonder if we have different expectations for a "start-up" Tesla and an established legacy car maker - meaning, Tesla is given the benefit of the doubt with their missteps - will Ford get that same leeway? iphone gets that leeway - its the AGILE approach, right. So will Ford, with their OTA updates be able to release and then fix as they go...just like Tesla does??
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Owners on the Tesla forum have reported on needing to pay for hardware changes. I can't remember if this just for the x and s models or when one wants to add fsd or other.
I wonder if it’s the HW3 they are paying for or an upgrade infotainment computer (I believe this was a recent option for $2k for older model X and S owners).
 

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The longer you own the car, the less you use AP in my experience. 80% of your driving is too and from work, and in my case on back roads, so I never even us AP. It's just not that useful for the daily driver.

Tesla vehicles are very over hyped. They have press releases that are the "hurry up and wait" mentality, such that there are still virtually no 250KW tesla superchargers I can charge my car at. They showed level 3 autonomy videos in their car last year and three years ago, yet we still don't have level 3 autonomy in the car.

EA has 4 350KW locations (more 150KW) in my state that can charge a EV up to 350KW if it supports it. Only EV out that can support that is the Porsche Taycan.

I think Ford is right on time, and will have a huge success on their hand. I think they are designing the Mach E for upgrade ability also, because we are talking about Ford Performance here. They are notorious for coming out with tunes and aftermarket updates to their fleet.

One thing they could do is make the computer system upgradeable, since maintence will be virtually non-existent in the vehicle. That is a very simple process to make a modular computer in the vehicle.

I am waiting to drive one and make sure it meets EPA range, but I intend to trade in my model 3 and go for the lease method on a Mach E GT or Mach E Premium AWD. Tesla just doesn't add value to me as a consumer like I once thought they did.

The fact I'm willing to do that should speak volumes to the question, is Tesla really 7 years ahead? My answer is no, I think they are two to three years ahead. If they were, none of us would even consider a Mach E.
 

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I really don't get the value of full self-driving mode in a personal car. When that arrives, it's real value will be in autonomous taxi/shuttle services, not personal cars. And when that happens, personal car ownership (new vehicle sales) will begin to dwindle rather fast.

That's what fully-autonomous is really for IMO -- people no longer needing their own personal cars. You just summon an AV taxi to take you from anywhere to anywhere else, for a fraction of the cost of owning your own car.
 

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I really don't get the value of full self-driving mode in a personal car. When that arrives, it's real value will be in autonomous taxi/shuttle services, not personal cars. And when that happens, personal car ownership (new vehicle sales) will begin to dwindle rather fast.

That's what fully-autonomous is really for IMO -- people no longer needing their own personal cars. You just summon an AV taxi to take you from anywhere to anywhere else, for a fraction of the cost of owning your own car.
Even when full self-driving is a reality, I doubt the personal car ownership will really go down significantly. Many people still like exclusive use of material objects. Heck, I don't even like to swap out propane tanks.
 


dbsb3233

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Even when full self-driving is a reality, I doubt the personal car ownership will really go down significantly. Many people still like exclusive use of material objects. Heck, I don't even like to swap out propane tanks.
I agree that there will still be a lot of personal car ownership. But even allowing for that, I think it could drop like 50% within a few decades after AV is perfected. Main reason being $$$ savings.

People tend to underestimate how much it really costs to own a car. The IRS pegs the cost of driving at 58 cents/mile. At first that sounds high, but when you really add it all up, it's about right. Meaning someone driving 12,000 miles/year is paying an average of about $7000/yr (vehicle cost, maintenance, insurance, fuel, etc).

If/when AV taxi service can be perfected to become very cost-effective, it's likely much cheaper than owning a car. Maybe not as much for the daily commuter making 250 trips/year to work, but for less frequent drivers it's a huge difference. Retirees for example, for which personal car ownership can be quite costly relative to less frequent usage. If an AV taxi can show up in 10 minutes and drive you to Costco for 8 bucks, it's a lot cheaper than paying $5k-$8k/year for owning a personal car.
 

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The longer you own the car, the less you use AP in my experience. 80% of your driving is too and from work, and in my case on back roads, so I never even us AP. It's just not that useful for the daily driver.
In your case that may be true, but for me a significant portion is on the highway. Autopilot/auto lane centering would be really handy for that mindless stretch of road.

I really don't get the value of full self-driving mode in a personal car. When that arrives, it's real value will be in autonomous taxi/shuttle services, not personal cars.
I feel like the autopilot/auto lane centering is "good enough" automation for me. I have no intention of letting the thing try to drive on winding back roads or crowded city situations - I simply don't trust any car to do it.

In general Ford is certainly behind, but I think where it matters (battery range, performance) the gap is acceptable considering the other factors in Ford's favor: price with rebate, style, and craftsmanship. I also feel that fostering true competition is necessary to ensure a monopoly doesn't develop in such a critical market.
 

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The longer you own the car, the less you use AP in my experience. 80% of your driving is too and from work, and in my case on back roads, so I never even us AP. It's just not that useful for the daily driver.

Tesla vehicles are very over hyped. They have press releases that are the "hurry up and wait" mentality, such that there are still virtually no 250KW tesla superchargers I can charge my car at. They showed level 3 autonomy videos in their car last year and three years ago, yet we still don't have level 3 autonomy in the car.

EA has 4 350KW locations (more 150KW) in my state that can charge a EV up to 350KW if it supports it. Only EV out that can support that is the Porsche Taycan.

I think Ford is right on time, and will have a huge success on their hand. I think they are designing the Mach E for upgrade ability also, because we are talking about Ford Performance here. They are notorious for coming out with tunes and aftermarket updates to their fleet.

One thing they could do is make the computer system upgradeable, since maintence will be virtually non-existent in the vehicle. That is a very simple process to make a modular computer in the vehicle.

I am waiting to drive one and make sure it meets EPA range, but I intend to trade in my model 3 and go for the lease method on a Mach E GT or Mach E Premium AWD. Tesla just doesn't add value to me as a consumer like I once thought they did.

The fact I'm willing to do that should speak volumes to the question, is Tesla really 7 years ahead? My answer is no, I think they are two to three years ahead. If they were, none of us would even consider a Mach E.
The funny thing about AP is the fact that Teslas handle so well and are so much fun to drive. If we accept that as a fact (and I believe it is), then why would we hand over this fun driving to a computer? I've very seldom used AP because I DO enjoy driving the car. Most of the times I've used it is to 'demo' the car to a friend that was never in it.

I suspect that the same will be true of the ME. I'd bet it too will be fun to drive, so why would I want to use AP?
 
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It's so funny to me that there are a couple of members on here that claim to own Model 3's, and yet make completely ignorant statements about them. Statements they'd know to be utterly and completely false if they had ever actually driven a 3, as opposed to reading about it on the internet. Like the assertion that the 3 will max out at the speed limit on non freeway roads. In fact, the limit is 5 Mph over the speed limit. A small error, but one a real owner wouldn't make for sure. I have never understood the need some people have to pretend to be someone they aren't on forums... I'll admit to being intolerant of people that do this. I have never suffered fools easily.

Anyways, the autopilot computer in Teslas was a Nvidia device up until April 2019. That hardware is known as HW 2.5. The newer computer designed by Tesla--known as HW 3.0--is installed free of charge in all HW 2.5 Teslas that have the FSD Option. (Full Self Driving.) To get it in a non-FSD Tesla, you have to upgrade to FSD. FSD when ordered with the car is currently $7k. Last I checked, to upgrade after purchase there is a $9k charge. The Older S and X vehicles can be upgraded to the newer multimedia computer for about $2500. It is not possible to update a vehicle with Autopilot 2.0 or earlier to FSD. (Pre-2017 Teslas.) Since the advent of HW 2.5, All Teslas come with the hardware for FSD pre-installed and can be upgraded OTA to FSD.

Third party analysis of HW 3.0 suggest that the Tesla designed computer is 6 to 7 years ahead of legacy automakers, at least. The engineer involved in the teardown in Japan stated that he did not believe Tesla's feat could be duplicated by Legacy automakers--ever. He state that he believed this due to the structure of the companies and their supply chains.

Manufacturing techniques developed for the Model Y are also many years ahead of legacy automakers. This happens anytime a new company enters an established field. (Assuming the new company has the means.) Legacy automakers have a substantial investment in older machinery that is not easily replaced. Tesla, starting from the ground up, is able to take advantage of advances in technique and technology.

As far as the usability of FSD, we'll know more sometime soon. The HW 3.0 computer is so much faster than 2.5 that the software is not capable of taking advantage of it. Tesla is currently doing a complete foundational re-write of the AP software. When that re-write is complete, we'll know what the AP can really do. Musk has stated that the advance will be revolutionary as opposed to evolutionary compared to the current software. Additionally, advances will happen at a much accelerated rate. Right now, 99% of the effort is being put in to developing the new software. Once the new software is done and released to the public, all of that effort that is currently invisible to the public will be put in to advancing the software. I agree that the $7k charged for FSD is not currently worth it. The $7K is an investment in what Elon Musk says will come. If he delivers FSD, that $7K will be a huge bargain. If he does not, it is an investment in a dream. Believe him or not, that is your choice.

Comparing Waymo to Tesla is like comparing bread to steak. Waymo relies on incredibly detailed GPS maps and comparatively simple software to drive in a pre-defined and limited area. (Downtown Portland for example.) Tesla is using artificial intelligence and standard GPS maps to enable a car to drive in a myriad of locations and conditions. The promise is to get in your car, tell it where to go--be it across town or across the country--and go to sleep. Every HW 2.5 Tesla "watches" the road and sends driving information back to the mothership. Tesla's are literally "learning" how to drive themselves. The AP driving data collected by Tesla is estimated to be worth $50B all by itself, as no one else has this data, or the means to collect it.
 

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The funny thing about AP is the fact that Teslas handle so well and are so much fun to drive. If we accept that as a fact (and I believe it is), then why would we hand over this fun driving to a computer? I've very seldom used AP because I DO enjoy driving the car. Most of the times I've used it is to 'demo' that car to a friend that was never in it.

I suspect that the same will be true of the ME. I'd bet it too will be fun to drive, so why would I want to use AP?
Try getting to your car after a 14 hour red-eye flight from Asia and still have a 170 mile drive home... Or maybe the bartender mixed your drink a little stiffer than you planned. Or sit in rush hour traffic getting stressed for two hours. Obviously I'm talking about a fully autonomous AP, not currently available. But even with what is available, driving with an AP is so much less tiring and stressful.

I love driving, and I especially love driving a great EV. But there are times I don't love driving. The AP in the Tesla has been a huge boon to me. I get to work--a three and a half hour drive--so much more refreshed and alert than I used to. Long drives are just SO much better than before. All of a sudden, road trips are fun again. And when you get to a twisty road, one click and you're back in full control.

It's like flying. I love flying. I miss my days in the USAF doing things most people only dream of. I love flying the heavies now, when the flying is demanding. But if the autopilot is written up as inop, I tell maintenance to take it back and give me an airplane with a functional autopilot. Hand flying across the pond--ocean--is not safe. After driving a car with an AP, I am here to tell you that a good AP makes driving significantly safer. According to USAA--my insurance company--it's six times safer. I believe them.
 

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I guess we differ on this. I don't find anything particularly relaxing about AP. The fact that I must have my hands on the wheel and if I don't have it on the wheel in the right way, I still get the nags. Additionally, the fact that I'm always watching what the car is doing when on AP, doesn't contribute to an air of relaxation. But that's me...oh, and I don't even drink. ;)

I actually find ACC to be pretty much as useful.
 

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Waymo has had level 4 driverless vehicles for the past two years now. The CEO has stated that true level 5 autonomy may never exist, with level 4 being the max. Waymo is years and years ahead of Tesla.
And they aren't the only ones.
 

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Try getting to your car after a 14 hour red-eye flight from Asia and still have a 170 mile drive home... Or maybe the bartender mixed your drink a little stiffer than you planned. Or sit in rush hour traffic getting stressed for two hours. Obviously I'm talking about a fully autonomous AP, not currently available. But even with what is available, driving with an AP is so much less tiring and stressful.

I love driving, and I especially love driving a great EV. But there are times I don't love driving. The AP in the Tesla has been a huge boon to me. I get to work--a three and a half hour drive--so much more refreshed and alert than I used to. Long drives are just SO much better than before. All of a sudden, road trips are fun again. And when you get to a twisty road, one click and you're back in full control.

It's like flying. I love flying. I miss my days in the USAF doing things most people only dream of. I love flying the heavies now, when the flying is demanding. But if the autopilot is written up as inop, I tell maintenance to take it back and give me an airplane with a functional autopilot. Hand flying across the pond--ocean--is not safe. After driving a car with an AP, I am here to tell you that a good AP makes driving significantly safer. According to USAA--my insurance company--it's six times safer. I believe them.
I get what you're saying, and I agree that there will be a segment of the population that feel that way, and will utilize it. But my guess is that most people won't find it that useful in their own personal car. I suspect most look at it as a cool feature to show off but when it comes to actual routine use, it probably won't get used a lot. When people don't want to drive somewhere by themselves, I think there will usually be better options than taking their own vehicle (if they even bother to own one anymore). Especially when fully autonomous technology becomes perfected, enabling cheap AV taxi services.
 

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I guess we differ on this. I don't find anything particularly relaxing about AP. The fact that I must have my hands on the wheel and if I don't have it on the wheel in the right way, I still get the nags. Additionally, the fact that I'm always watching what the car is doing when on AP, doesn't contribute to an air of relaxation. But that's me...oh, and I don't even drink. ;)

I actually find ACC to be pretty much as useful.
Everyone is different, that's a fact. As far as the nags, I just got in the habit of rolling the stereo volume up and down a click. It's not enough to hear, and i just do it by habit now. It keeps my hand on the wheel and I never get the nags. TBH, I don't even notice I'm doing it now. I still pay attention to the road, but almost never having to actually intervene just is so much easier to me. I enjoy my conversations, the music, the scenery, etc more. I'm free to change my seating position. I can use both hands to open a coke. I feel MUCH safer. For me at least, it's a total game changer on long drives.

EDITED TO ADD: For those unaware, the volume control on the 3 is on the steering wheel. Changing the volume counts as interacting with the steering wheel because the car knows your hand is on the steering wheel.
 

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It's so funny to me that there are a couple of members on here that claim to own Model 3's, and yet make completely ignorant statements about them. Statements they'd know to be utterly and completely false if they had ever actually driven a 3, as opposed to reading about it on the internet. Like the assertion that the 3 will max out at the speed limit on non freeway roads. In fact, the limit is 5 Mph over the speed limit. A small error, but one a real owner wouldn't make for sure. I have never understood the need some people have to pretend to be someone they aren't on forums... I'll admit to being intolerant of people that do this. I have never suffered fools easily.

Anyways, the autopilot computer in Teslas was a Nvidia device up until April 2019. That hardware is known as HW 2.5. The newer computer designed by Tesla--known as HW 3.0--is installed free of charge in all HW 2.5 Teslas that have the FSD Option. (Full Self Driving.) To get it in a non-FSD Tesla, you have to upgrade to FSD. FSD when ordered with the car is currently $7k. Last I checked, to upgrade after purchase there is a $9k charge. The Older S and X vehicles can be upgraded to the newer multimedia computer for about $2500. It is not possible to update a vehicle with Autopilot 2.0 or earlier to FSD. (Pre-2017 Teslas.) Since the advent of HW 2.5, All Teslas come with the hardware for FSD pre-installed and can be upgraded OTA to FSD.

Third party analysis of HW 3.0 suggest that the Tesla designed computer is 6 to 7 years ahead of legacy automakers, at least. The engineer involved in the teardown in Japan stated that he did not believe Tesla's feat could be duplicated by Legacy automakers--ever. He state that he believed this due to the structure of the companies and their supply chains.

Manufacturing techniques developed for the Model Y are also many years ahead of legacy automakers. This happens anytime a new company enters an established field. (Assuming the new company has the means.) Legacy automakers have a substantial investment in older machinery that is not easily replaced. Tesla, starting from the ground up, is able to take advantage of advances in technique and technology.

As far as the usability of FSD, we'll know more sometime soon. The HW 3.0 computer is so much faster than 2.5 that the software is not capable of taking advantage of it. Tesla is currently doing a complete foundational re-write of the AP software. When that re-write is complete, we'll know what the AP can really do. Musk has stated that the advance will be revolutionary as opposed to evolutionary compared to the current software. Additionally, advances will happen at a much accelerated rate. Right now, 99% of the effort is being put in to developing the new software. Once the new software is done and released to the public, all of that effort that is currently invisible to the public will be put in to advancing the software. I agree that the $7k charged for FSD is not currently worth it. The $7K is an investment in what Elon Musk says will come. If he delivers FSD, that $7K will be a huge bargain. If he does not, it is an investment in a dream. Believe him or not, that is your choice.

Comparing Waymo to Tesla is like comparing bread to steak. Waymo relies on incredibly detailed GPS maps and comparatively simple software to drive in a pre-defined and limited area. (Downtown Portland for example.) Tesla is using artificial intelligence and standard GPS maps to enable a car to drive in a myriad of locations and conditions. The promise is to get in your car, tell it where to go--be it across town or across the country--and go to sleep. Every HW 2.5 Tesla "watches" the road and sends driving information back to the mothership. Tesla's are literally "learning" how to drive themselves. The AP driving data collected by Tesla is estimated to be worth $50B all by itself, as no one else has this data, or the means to collect it.
That thirdy party assumed that legacy car makers a) will self-develop the software b) from what is on the market now - meaning what they could compare against. Ford has said they partnered with outside-the-company computer and software developers...so it seems Ford is flipping the assumptions that the third party made. It sounds like, if we believe the talking points - and I have no reason not to - is that Ford used internal and external partners to develop a whole new system for the MME...maybe the third party is right if Ford stayed with the status quo, but it sounds like they haven't...
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