MME wins real-world range test vs. 9 other BEVs

theo1000

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Let me put it in terms you will understand. 68kwhr x 3.3miles/kw = 224 miles, 68kwhr x 3.85miles/kw = 261.8
How can anyone argue just add more batteries instead on working on efficiency?
I can.

The more you depend on efficiency the more unpredictable that range becomes. The slightest change in wind direction and you are in a$$ pucker zone.

10 kwh of extra batteries is in the neighborhood of $1000 now. considering the cooling, packaging electronics, etc is already on board. by 2030 it will on the order of $500. Manufacturers are largely focused on packing on the kwh's right now and that is how they should go. For an SUV my guess is 120kwh should be a minimum.

With EV's efficiency is way over rated. No one wants to know what the hyper-mile range that no mere mortal person can achieve is. I and everyone wants a consistent range figure we can count on.
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Motomax

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I can.

The more you depend on efficiency the more unpredictable that range becomes. The slightest change in wind direction and you are in a$$ pucker zone.

10 kwh of extra batteries is in the neighborhood of $1000 now. considering the cooling, packaging electronics, etc is already on board. by 2030 it will on the order of $500. Manufacturers are largely focused on packing on the kwh's right now and that is how they should go. For an SUV my guess is 120kwh should be a minimum.

With EV's efficiency is way over rated. No one wants to know what the hyper-mile range that no mere mortal person can achieve is. I and everyone wants a consistent range figure we can count on.
Couple issues:
All else being the same on a vehicle, increasing efficiency can never give you less range. It’s literally impossible. The more efficient the vehicle is the more consistent your range will be given a changing environment as well. Ie, more efficient heater means less range loss during winter.

Btw ask a Tesla owner how they feel about hitting that hyper-range number that no mere mortal can achieve lol.
 

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So basically, the battery tech comparison between Tesla and Ford boils down to 3 things: range, efficiency, and DCFC speed.

So let’s compare those 3 things between the Tesla Model Y Long Range and Mustang Mach E AWD Extended in Premium trim. This is as close to apples-to-apples as you’re gonna get.

We’re gonna take the Edmunds range test numbers at face value. MYLR has the longer range at 317 versus the MME 4X’s 304. But that’s a pretty minuscule difference.

The MYLR achieves this range on a smaller 80kWh battery pack, giving it an efficiency of 3.96 mi/kWh. This is better than the MME 4X’s 3.45 mi/kWh. But how significant is that? Well, if you assume 15,000 miles driven in a year at 12 cents per kWh, the MYLR will save a whopping $66.80 per year.

Because Tesla no longer receives the federal tax credit, the minimum price difference between these two models is $4,490 more expensive for the MYLR. Change the paint options and the MYLR could be as much as $7,090 more expensive! (Note this is as of August 16 at 1:30pm Central - Tesla prices are more volatile than Bitcoin).

Which means it would take between 67 and 106 years - not months, years - to make up that purchase price premium with electricity savings.

So, so far, the range difference is meaningless, and the efficiency difference is completely wiped out by the Tesla price premium.

Which finally brings us to DCFC speed. Here the MYLR has a material edge. It takes just 31 minutes to charge 0-80%, and another 10 minutes to get to 90%. By contrast, the MME 4X takes 48 minutes to charge 0-80%, and another 42 minutes to get to 90% (thanks to its laughably conservative charging curve - or “cliff”).

So, range and efficiency differences are meaningless. DCFC speed could be a meaningful consideration if you intend to DCFC often (most likely a lot of road trips).

And there you have it.
 

theo1000

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Couple issues:
All else being the same on a vehicle, increasing efficiency can never give you less range. It’s literally impossible. The more efficient the vehicle is the more consistent your range will be given a changing environment as well. Ie, more efficient heater means less range loss during winter.

Btw ask a Tesla owner how they feel about hitting that hyper-range number that no mere mortal can achieve lol.
Nah! everything has a cost. Even efficiency. Ford is wise to not get to caught up in that efficiency siliness. Keep it cheap cheap, stuff as much battery in there as you can, max out the range, give it an attractive look. That's what works for everything else.

By the way not every one of your posts has to be a plug for TSLA.
 

Motomax

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Nah! everything has a cost. Even efficiency. Ford is wise to not get to caught up in that efficiency siliness. Keep it cheap cheap, stuff as much battery in there as you can, max out the range, give it an attractive look. That's what works for everything else.

By the way not every one of your posts has to be a plug for TSLA.
That wasn’t a Tesla plug that was giving Tesla shit for inflating their range numbers to trick the range obsessed consumers ?.
I would never own a Tesla. Than again Ive also said I’d never own a Ford sooo who knows, but I seriously doubt it.
 


theo1000

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Sorry misread it. Am on high alert for the TSLA folks after a long weekend on the lake with several blowhards trying to put down my MME. Mostly female too...

Ford knows very well how to inflate their numbers, and to do shenanigans like allowing very high DCFC rates knowing it is damaging to the car. They choose not too. For now. The Big Three roll out the numbers game when they absolutely have to. Witness the on again / off again HP wars. I think they will pick a time of their choosing to get into that range war. Right now they are selling every EV they can roll out. And likely sold out for the next 3-4 years.

That wasn’t a Tesla plug that was giving Tesla shit for inflating their range numbers to trick the range obsessed consumers
 

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Am on high alert for the TSLA folks after a long weekend on the lake with several blowhards trying to put down my MME. Mostly female too...
LMAO. Damn. I'd hate to own a car that grown women laugh at. That's even worse than a woman saying your car is "cute".
 

theo1000

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LMAO. Damn. I'd hate to own a car that grown women laugh at. That's even worse than a woman saying your car is "cute".
Well if it makes you better I put the pony (sorry horsey) on the ground at night after a few beers and caused a few audible orgasms. ? Panties had to be changed.;)
 

Motomax

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Sorry misread it. Am on high alert for the TSLA folks after a long weekend on the lake with several blowhards trying to put down my MME. Mostly female too...

Ford knows very well how to inflate their numbers, and to do shenanigans like allowing very high DCFC rates knowing it is damaging to the car. They choose not too. For now. The Big Three roll out the numbers game when they absolutely have to. Witness the on again / off again HP wars. I think they will pick a time of their choosing to get into that range war. Right now they are selling every EV they can roll out. And likely sold out for the next 3-4 years.
The Elon fanboys/girls can kick rocks. Personally I’d rather not have a vehicle where my purchased add-ons could be canceled when sold, be locked out of a charging network for no reason, and be left up shts creek trying to by simple replacement parts.

Ford did good with the Mach e and not making it look like a toy car. Now they just need to work of refining the technology side of the vehicle a little better, but you’re right the current demand means they probably won’t for a little while.
 

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Btw ask a Tesla owner how they feel about hitting that hyper-range number that no mere mortal can achieve lol.
This is my drive down 95S to Northern Virginia. I do the drive every few months. No issues coming close to the EPA rated range, which is 240 Wh/mi. I get 237 Wh/mi on the drive down, 242 Wh/mi on the drive back.

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Nah! everything has a cost. Even efficiency. Ford is wise to not get to caught up in that efficiency siliness. Keep it cheap cheap, stuff as much battery in there as you can, max out the range, give it an attractive look. That's what works for everything else.
Don’t forget less road noise. A lot less than the Model Y. The cost of cutting pounds. My MME deadens the road noise so well that I can clearly hear the buzz from my driver screen!
 

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Those efficiency drops would be more drastic in a less efficient drivetrain than a more efficient drivetrain so I don’t see how that justifies bigger batteries over efficiency?
Not true, the end result will be almost the same from both, provided they have the same battery, because the efficiency will be dominated by other factors than the car design. In relative terms the efficiency drop will be the highest in a more efficient car. But if less efficient car has a bigger battery it will end up better than the more efficient one with a smaller battery.
Making a vehicle more efficient doesn’t mean an inadequate battery, it means you utilize that battery more efficiently which translates to more range in every environment compared to an less efficient version of the same car.
Of course, that's exactly what will happen. Even if you look at the efficient gas cars and hybrids they all have significantly smaller gas tanks. There is no doubt the battery will be smaller as efficiency is improved. Smaller battery means cheaper cars and better margins for the manufacturers and more bullshit directed at consumer, as those cars in real life suddenly can't climb a hill, can't drive fast, can't tow, can't drive well in cold, etc. etc.. You seem to believe in some magic when it comes to efficiency. In reality it's just physics, the amount of energy you need to climb up the hill, or tow a certain load, etc. are determined by simple Newtonian laws.
Also, battery size is directly related to charging time so I don’t follow you there. Adding a more powerful charger isn’t a factor in making a vehicle more efficient so is not really a valid justification for not doing it. It’s also well known that Fast DC charging is more damaging than level 1 and level 2, so I don’t follow you there either.
I think my explanation was pretty clear. Whether you have 500 cells or 5000 cells they all charge at the same speed. So your idea that bigger battery requires longer charging time is totally wrong.
 

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Couple issues:
All else being the same on a vehicle, increasing efficiency can never give you less range. It’s literally impossible.
You confusing different issues. Efficiency is tested at certain optimal conditions. When that changes the range and everything changes. They improve efficiency numbers by improving aerodynamics, using lower rolling resistance tires, lowering weight, at lower than normal speed -- all that becomes irrelevant in non optimal real world driving conditions. But tradeoffs they make to achieve those efficiency numbers make cars worse in other ways.
 

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You confusing different issues. Efficiency is tested at certain optimal conditions. When that changes the range and everything changes. They improve efficiency numbers by improving aerodynamics, using lower rolling resistance tires, lowering weight, at lower than normal speed -- all that becomes irrelevant in non optimal real world driving conditions. But tradeoffs they make to achieve those efficiency numbers make cars worse in other ways.
Efficiency, in the way we’re speaking of, is simply the ratio of battery capacity to total miles. Make your range test any way you want it to match your real world use, but believing that making something more efficient is some sort of theoretical unicorn is quite an interesting view. Please explain how, say, a lighter vehicle will somehow magically become less efficient than the original heavier version it replaced under some weird “everyday” circumstance.

We get it more battery, mooorree powerrr, you can laugh all they way home because you saved that 30 min charging stop for a trip you take once a year…. Don’t worry this is a hypothetical “you” that represents the vast how majority of owners will use their vehicle.

Also, please explain how a 50kwhr battery and a 70kwhr battery will fully charge at the same speed using a level 2 charger. Since that’s what most people will use.
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