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dbsb3233

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Clearly, all the gaps need to be filled. Fast chargers need to be as prevalent as gas stations are. Not just in urban/suburban areas, but also in rural areas
Doesn't need to be as many as gas stations, since gas stations do 100% of all ICE refuels but DCFC only does maybe 10% of BEV refuels. The vast majority of BEV charging is L2 (usually at home). So there will never be the same demand for DCFC that there is for gas stations.

But yes, there's still a long way to go to fill in the highway gaps around the country. Eventually coverage every 40-50 miles would be ideal, as that would provide overlap redundancy for backup. People want a backup option to feel more comfortable making the switch. Depending on a "do or die" single charging station on a road trip is more nerve-wracking. But knowing there's another one 15% SOC away as backup provides more comfort.

Meanwhile, there needs to be huge growth in cheap L2 chargers into apartment complexes and hotels, etc.
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sockmeister

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That would be welcome news - of course, we would be welcomed with mean stares from the Tesla owners every time we plugged in :)
And those mean stares are something I would welcome even more! (Provided I could watch my car while it charges, of course :) )
 

JoeDimwit

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Doesn't need to be as many as gas stations, since gas stations do 100% of all ICE refuels but DCFC only does maybe 10% of BEV refuels. The vast majority of BEV charging is L2 (usually at home). So there will never be the same demand for DCFC that there is for gas stations.
But, is most charging done at home because there is a lack of on the road charging options? Is that perceived lack of on the road charging options slowing the conversion to BEV’s?

I’m not saying these are hard facts, rather I’m simply asking the question.
 

dbsb3233

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But, is most charging done at home because there is a lack of on the road charging options? Is that perceived lack of on the road charging options slowing the conversion to BEV’s?

I’m not saying these are hard facts, rather I’m simply asking the question.
No, most is done at home because of convenience, and cost.

DCFC is still very slow as compared to a gas refuel. And requires the driver to "babysit" the car (i.e. monitor the car and move it after 20-40 minutes when the charge is done). That's a big PITA to do more than a few times on a rare road trip. But conversely, charging at home in "park it & forget it" fashion is super easy. Easier than gas refueling, in fact. You simply do what you always do -- arrive home in the evening, park your car in the garage, then leave in the morning. The only difference is you take 30 seconds on each end to plug in and unplug. Easy-peasy. There is the one-time cost of installing the circuit for the outlet, but most are willing to do that to enable a decade of gains on the easiness.

Plus, residential electricity rates are usually 60-80% less than DCFC rates. DCFC tends to be in the same ballpark as gasoline on a per-mile basis. I've calculated gas at roughly $0.10/mile for my Escape, and the same for using EA Pass+ rates for the Mach-E. While charging my Mach-E at home only costs about $0.03/mile. Over 100,000 miles, that's a $7000 savings that helps offset the much higher price a BEV.
 
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OldEVGuy

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I agree. Rest areas need them instead of driving off the beaten path to a charger. Why aren’t they set up in these areas?
In Ohio, one problem with having DC fast charging at rest areas, is the lack of adequate power at many of these locations. I imagine this is the case for most states.
 
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JoeDimwit

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No, most is done at home because of convenience, and cost.

DCFC is still very slow as compared to a gas refuel. And requires the driver to "babysit" the car (i.e. monitor the car and move it after 20-40 minutes when the charge is done). That's a big PITA to do more than a few times on a rare road trip. But conversely, charging at home in "park it & forget it" fashion is super easy. Easier than gas refueling, in fact. You simply do what you always do -- arrive home in the evening, park your car in the garage, then leave in the morning. The only difference is you take 30 seconds on each end to plug in and unplug. Easy-peasy. There is the one-time cost of installing the circuit for the outlet, but most are willing to do that to enable a decade of gains on the easiness.

Plus, residential electricity rates are usually 60-80% less than DCFC rates. DCFC tends to be in the same ballpark as gasoline on a per-mile basis. I've calculated gas at roughly $0.10/mile for my Escape, and the same for using EA Pass+ rates for the Mach-E. While charging my Mach-E at home only costs about $0.03/mile. Over 100,000 miles, that's a $7000 savings that helps offset the much higher price a BEV.
I understand what you’re saying, and I agree to a point. I personally still believe that the average person still sees BEV’s as a tether to their home, and that this perception is keeping some consumers from taking the plunge.
 

timbop

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But, is most charging done at home because there is a lack of on the road charging options? Is that perceived lack of on the road charging options slowing the conversion to BEV’s?

I’m not saying these are hard facts, rather I’m simply asking the question.
One of the major conveniences of a BEV is that you don't have to go to a gas station: just pull into your driveway/garage and take 10 seconds to plug in before going inside. Why would you want to go out of your way to get to a charger and then have to sit around for 30-45 minutes when you can let the car charge while you're asleep in bed?

Certainly some people (apartment dwellers or renters) may not have the luxury of a home L2 charger, but overall EV chargers will be used less often than gas pumps. That means less revenue from charging sessions, which in turn means the economics will not support as many fast DC chargers as gas pumps. What is not clear from the high level description is if all those 500k chargers are to be DCFC, or if some will be AC L2. Since L2 chargers are far cheaper it would make sense for a portion of the funding to go to L2 chargers in proximity to apartment buildings.
 

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I understand what you’re saying, and I agree to a point. I personally still believe that the average person still sees BEV’s as a tether to their home, and that this perception is keeping some consumers from taking the plunge.
Yes there needs to be far better rural and highway DCFC coverage, but the economics will not support a 1-for-1 replacement of gas pumps with DCFC chargers, let alone MORE DCFC than gas pumps.
 

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But, is most charging done at home because there is a lack of on the road charging options? Is that perceived lack of on the road charging options slowing the conversion to BEV’s?

I’m not saying these are hard facts, rather I’m simply asking the question.
No, 95% of charging is done at home because it is cheaper and more convenient. What ICE driver would say no to this offer: we'll come to your house and refill your gas tank every night and charge you less than if you went to the gas station?
 

TheVirtualTim

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The station has 3 CCS and 1 CHAdemMO DC chargers.
IMG_0580.JPG
That's actually 4 CCS and 1 CHAdeMO. Notice the color of the two stickers on the front of each station.

The left-most station (I'll call that station 1) has 1 green and 1 blue sticker (1 CCS & 1 CHAdeMO). The other stations have 2x green (CCS) stickers. But while each station has two cables, only one can be used at a time. So if all 3 CCS-only chargers are in use, a 4th car could CCS charge on the left-most station ... or a car can charge via CHAdeMO on that station.

This seems to be pretty common for EA to have just one dual-plug station and the rest be CCS the manufacturers that used to build cars with CHAdeMO have since converted to CCS ... those CHAdeMO connectors are basically just there for older cars built before they switched over (and if my recollection is correct... I think the station can only supply 50kW if using the CCS port.)
 

ChasingCoral

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That's actually 4 CCS and 1 CHAdeMO. Notice the color of the two stickers on the front of each station.

The left-most station (I'll call that station 1) has 1 green and 1 blue sticker (1 CCS & 1 CHAdeMO). The other stations have 2x green (CCS) stickers. But while each station has two cables, only one can be used at a time. So if all 3 CCS-only chargers are in use, a 4th car could CCS charge on the left-most station ... or a car can charge via CHAdeMO on that station.

This seems to be pretty common for EA to have just one dual-plug station and the rest be CCS the manufacturers that used to build cars with CHAdeMO have since converted to CCS ... those CHAdeMO connectors are basically just there for older cars built before they switched over (and if my recollection is correct... I think the station can only supply 50kW if using the CCS port.)
The dual CCS/CHAdeMO chargers are 150kW CCS and 50kW CHAdeMO.
 

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For all the people disagreeing with me, what is the #1 reason people give you for why they won’t buy an ev yet? I know for me it’s the perception that range is an issue.

“They’re probably fine for around town, but I drive to my parents 700 miles away twice a year. They can’t make that trip yet.”
I’m not disagreeing that most of us recognize that charging from home is actually preferable, and we recognize that there are options to charge on trips if you do a little planning. But there are tons of people out there that still can’t wrap their heads around those concepts.
 

TheVirtualTim

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I see the problem in "tiers".

If you own a newer home with an attached garage and at least a 200 amp service panel (very common on new homes) then adding 240v to your garage for charging is no big deal.

If you own an older home with a detached garage and a smaller service panel ... adding charging to your garage IS a big deal (upgrades to the meter and service panel are needed and a way to run 240v power out to the garage is another big deal). These are expensive installs.

If you don't own a private residence (shared condo) then the problem is even worse. And if you live in an apartment (down own the home) then it's even worse yet.

I do see the occasional person talking about how they live in an apartment/condo that doesn't give them access to charging. I have another friend who says his condo complex *will* let him install a charger in the garage (they have assigned parking spaces) but due to the way they built the garage and how they want him to tap into the power the cost is crazy high (in excess of $15k).

It makes me wonder if there shouldn't be some program to simplify this by running sufficient power all the way through a garage, asking residents to buy a specific model charger that allows you to 'authorize' charging and track utilization so everyone pays for just what they use. If each resident has to install charging infrastructure as a one-off and at great expensive it's not going to work.

And then there are the apartment complexes ... and since those tend to be temporary homes, renters aren't likely to want to pay to have a charger installed at great expense only to have to abandon it when they move.
 
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That's actually 4 CCS and 1 CHAdeMO. Notice the color of the two stickers on the front of each station.

The left-most station (I'll call that station 1) has 1 green and 1 blue sticker (1 CCS & 1 CHAdeMO). The other stations have 2x green (CCS) stickers. But while each station has two cables, only one can be used at a time. So if all 3 CCS-only chargers are in use, a 4th car could CCS charge on the left-most station ... or a car can charge via CHAdeMO on that station.

This seems to be pretty common for EA to have just one dual-plug station and the rest be CCS the manufacturers that used to build cars with CHAdeMO have since converted to CCS ... those CHAdeMO connectors are basically just there for older cars built before they switched over (and if my recollection is correct... I think the station can only supply 50kW if using the CCS port.)
Good catch and you're right! EA even stipulated this somewhere in my reading but I can't remember where it was. Also was told on this board that proper charging "etiquette" is not to use the charger that does CHAdeMO unless the other three are occupied.
 

dbsb3233

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I understand what you’re saying, and I agree to a point. I personally still believe that the average person still sees BEV’s as a tether to their home, and that this perception is keeping some consumers from taking the plunge.
Oh for sure. We absolutely need more DCFC between cities for road tripping. That's gonna take years to gradually build up. Although there has been great progress in the last 2-3 years on many routes, particularly from EA.

I just wish EA would prioritize between-city chargers ahead of in-city. They're spending a lot of their capital on in-city chargers now. That's really the comparison I was referring to - the routine charging close to home. That needs to be overwhelmingly L2 overnight at home (or work) rather than DCFCing weekly like a gas fill-up.
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