Is the Mach-E really 7 years behind Tesla?

[Jolteon]

For you, it'd be very useful since you travel a lot and use a lot of data.

I'm the opposite. But also, here in the southwest, if I needed data while travelling between cities, I'd probably need to switch to Verizon, not AT&T or T-Mobile (my current carrier).

I mean I listened to about 600 minutes of podcasts today in the car I'd estimate, so at 1MB/min yeah that's 600MB just today. That's way too much for my personal phone's plan, so why I keep begging for the Tesla Premium Connectivity equivalent, but this would also solve it.

In all the talk on here about the car having the modem, I don't recall ever hearing anyone say it offered WiFi. Thanks for pointing this out - this really solves one of the biggest things I was worried about with my Mach-E coming other than the dashcam.

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[macchiaz-o]

I mean I listened to about 600 minutes of podcasts today in the car I'd estimate, so at 1MB/min yeah that's 600MB just today. That's way too much for my personal phone's plan, so why I keep begging for the Tesla Premium Connectivity equivalent, but this would also solve it.

In all the talk on here about the car having the modem, I don't recall ever hearing anyone say it offered WiFi. Thanks for pointing this out - this really solves one of the biggest things I was worried about with my Mach-E coming other than the dashcam.

If, worst case, you were to listen to 600 MB of podcasts every day for 30 days, you'd be at nearly 20 GB of data. So you'd either need to consider the $25/mo unlimited plan, or use a hybrid approach where you set TuneIn (or whatever) to auto download new episodes while you're sleeping at home or hotel, and only stream episodes when you're existing subs have run dry.

I just completed a six day road trip with roughly 8 hours driving per day. This quickly exhausted my podcast queue, like within the first couple days. So each time I joined my phone to hotel WiFi, I also went to my app (Podcast Addict) and downloaded several year old episodes of shows that I hadn't yet listened to.

 

[Jolteon]

If, worst case, you were to listen to 600 MB of podcasts every day for 30 days, you'd be at nearly 20 GB of data. So you'd either need to consider the $25/mo unlimited plan, or use a hybrid approach where you set TuneIn (or whatever) to auto download new episodes while you're sleeping at home or hotel, and only stream episodes when you're existing subs have run dry.

I just completed a six day road trip with roughly 8 hours driving per day. This quickly exhausted my podcast queue, like within the first couple days. So each time I joined my phone to hotel WiFi, I also went to my app (Podcast Addict) and downloaded several year old episodes of shows that I hadn't yet listened to.

Might do the unlimited just for the extra backup to be able to tether to laptops etc. while remote (since again, that burns through the personal data WAY too fast for my wallet). This actually sounds better and better.

 

[Nak]

And now, now it's time to watch the Seahawks kick the Vikings ass around the field!!!!!

Off topic, but DAMN!!! That was a nail biter!

 

[dbsb3233]

I will wholeheartedly agree that Tesla's reported range looks like it will be 25% - 30% better than what we assume the Mach E's will be. However, you can't ignore these factors:

1. Ford's 10% penalty for AWD is most likely an off-the-cuff conservative guess. I don't think it will be that high of a penalty. Just like they improved the 0-60 times by a good margin, I expect the efficiency to be much better. I'm already on record saying I see the RWD being in the 3.5-3.6 mi/kwh vicinity, and I would expect the AWD to be at least 3.25 to 3.3.
2. You yourself have pointed out many times that the EPA ratings don't really correlate to real world experiences, and Tesla is one if the few companies that doesn't just take the 30% penalty for estimating the corner cases. They actually went through additional testing procedures that netted them a 24% penalty instead of 30% - which is where the 316 came from. The taycan didn't do that, so it got a worse result than it likely would have if it completed all the tests
3. In head to head testing, Tesla underperforms its numbers and other manufacturers often overperform

Even with those considerations, I will grant that I believe the Y still has a 20% more fuel efficient platform - because Tesla uses so much aluminum. That's a double edged sword: it gets better efficiency, but in an accident it is much harder to fix and is more likely to simply be totaled. Given that it's Ford's first BEV with a pretty comprehensive feature list I certainly don't think they are 7 years behind - maybe 2 years. In either case they've hit the ground running and the MME will be excellent competition.

Oh, and I also expect some of the buffer will be opened up within a year just like with the model 3. So, by next year you might see a 15-20 mile increase in range

Yeah I generally agree with most of that. And I think we could see modest improvement in a few areas. But still well short of the MY mileage. The MME would need a range of 380 or something to match it, and I don't anything that high.

Agree about EPA being nearly worthless for highway driving. However when comparing one model to another, I expect it's roughly equally for off for both, thus not so bad as a RELATIVE comparison.

 

[trutolife27]

I can buy an aftermarket dashcam that records four different angles (front, back, and both sides), in the car without any ugly power cables across the interior? And that can detect motion coordinated with the vehicle alarm? Please, link me to that solution.

I don't want a display in front of the driver. Never saw the need. Been without one for two years and not once have I thought "you know what I need? a redundant screen."

I don't want third party apps using my phone's data. I want the car to have good enough tech built in that third-party apps aren't needed, and to use the car's data, not mine.

I love the Mach-E's door handles. I don't get why you think I'm knocking the Mach-E when I signed up for a First Edition that cost $10k more than my Tesla did.

I'm not saying adding cams is better than tesla. What I'm saying is that is an option a person can at least have if they want the mache more then a tesla model y.

The screen does not matter to "your" taste that is fine. But at the end of the day that is something more the mache offers that tesla does not.

When comparing 2 things you have to look at what they have and don't have. There is no grabber blue for model y. There is no sentry mode for ford. The cost to add a front and rear camera to the mache is way less than repainting the model y grabber blue.

In a recent survey of tesla owners, 45% said they will look at the Ford Mache as a replacement for their tesla vehicle.

If I came in and said I don't like something on the mache. Then as a group here, "friends" I count on their feedback to tell if there is a way to fix the problem or what options I have.

I get you spending 10,000 more on the mache then your tesla. But again you have a car and this is a crossover SUV. The head to head is model y to Mache. Model 3 is vs the Polestar 2.

Also, you are saying you spending 10,000 more for the mache you order. The mache first edition you ordered. should be 56,409. Then your tesla is a long-range model with black seats, white color, 18-inch rims 46,990. Is that the model 3 you have?

 

[Shayne]

MME EPA numbers aren't out yet, but Ford's estimates are surely pretty close... 270 miles projected on the AWD ER, 98.8 kWh full battery (88 usable). 270 / 88 = 3.07 miles/kWh.

Model Y AWD LR 316 miles range, 75 kWh full battery (est. ~72 usable). 316 / 72 = 4.39 miles/kWh.

Even if you tweak the usable battery up for the MY, and tweak the MME EPA range up a little, it's still not close.

I thought the math was they released those estimated ranges prior to deciding on 88 KWh usable. Do you think those estimated ranges were cited knowing they were going to use only 88 back when they were announced?

 

[Shayne]

It's pretty obvious because efficiency is more than electric motors and wheel bearings. It's also aerodynamics and weight. The same thing that makes the Mach-e look more like a muscle car also makes it have more drag. Plus, 600 pounds of weight is not a little deal. The heat pump implementation is also going to be a big deal. It will be interesting to see if Ford can match it. It's not just a heat pump, it's the octovalve that allows the Y to draw waste heat from the motors and battery to help heat the cabin. One system heats and cools the cabin, the motors, and the batteries, moving heat where it needs to be either used or dispersed. I truly hope Ford can do the same thing. Opinions about that are irrelevant, either they'll be able to or they won't. The proof will be in the tear down.

If you're unfamiliar with the octovalve, just watch Sandy Munro's tear down video covering that.

I will take the drag as I do not want to look like a gold fish driving down the road. You note heat pump. Like not in the S, X and the 3; right because as Musk said no big advantage? The Y does not have enough data to say jack on that yet. Want to cruise on a 12 speed it is power and hubs. Fiction is more of a drag and as time goes on efficiency can be impacted by increased frictions. But the heat pump is going to be a big deal; sure huge.

 

[Jolteon]

I'm not saying adding cams is better than tesla. What I'm saying is that is an option a person can at least have if they want the mache more then a tesla model y.

The screen does not matter to "your" taste that is fine. But at the end of the day that is something more the mache offers that tesla does not.

When comparing 2 things you have to look at what they have and don't have. There is no grabber blue for model y. There is no sentry mode for ford. The cost to add a front and rear camera to the mache is way less than repainting the model y grabber blue.

In a recent survey of tesla owners, 45% said they will look at the Ford Mache as a replacement for their tesla vehicle.

If I came in and said I don't like something on the mache. Then as a group here, "friends" I count on their feedback to tell if there is a way to fix the problem or what options I have.

I get you spending 10,000 more on the mache then your tesla. But again you have a car and this is a crossover SUV. The head to head is model y to Mache. Model 3 is vs the Polestar 2.

Also, you are saying you spending 10,000 more for the mache you order. The mache first edition you ordered. should be 56,409. Then your tesla is a long-range model with black seats, white color, 18-inch rims 46,990. Is that the model 3 you have?

My Model 3 was $46,500 in 2018, and I received the $7,500 tax credit, so $39,000 out the door.

The Mach-E First Edition I ordered is $58,300 - $7,500 = $50,800, or actually $11,800 more than the Model 3 I already own.

So I don't think it's completely unreasonable to expect the same features I have today on a car that asks $11,800 more than I paid for what I currently have.

That's all I'm saying.

 

[dbsb3233]

I thought the math was they released those estimated ranges prior to deciding on 88 KWh usable. Do you think those estimated ranges were cited knowing they were going to use only 88 back when they were announced?

I assume so, yes. Or at least something close. Maybe they tweaked it a little after they got some built and found they needed to make it a little more or a little less for best battery performance under stress, but they knew a lot about how EV batteries work and that there has to be a safety buffer.

I also hope they already planned for at least an 11% buffer (thus 88 kWh), because if they planned for less when they calculated 300 miles range, but found they had to increase the buffer (say from 90 to 88), then the newly calculated range would likely go down. We sure don't want that.

 

[timbop]

I thought the math was they released those estimated ranges prior to deciding on 88 KWh usable. Do you think those estimated ranges were cited knowing they were going to use only 88 back when they were announced?

Yes, they knew they would have a buffer when they announced the estimated ranges last november. They probably had not decided on the exact number at that time, which is one of the reasons for calling it an "estimate".

 

[trutolife27]

My Model 3 was $46,500 in 2018, and I received the $7,500 tax credit, so $39,000 out the door.

The Mach-E First Edition I ordered is $58,300 - $7,500 = $50,800, or actually $11,800 more than the Model 3 I already own.

So I don't think it's completely unreasonable to expect the same features I have today on a car that asks $11,800 more than I paid for what I currently have.

That's all I'm saying.

I get some of your points. But again the model 3 is a car. the Mache is an SUV. I can't buy a Geo metro and expect it to have the same as an f-150. The segment is not the same. That is the problem with your pricing. You are going from a cheaper segment to a higher one. If Ford made the Mache as a car like a tesla model 3 then the price would be about 45,000 so around the same price.

56,409 is what a first edition is right now. not 58,300. take away the 7,500 and the cost is 48,909.

 

[trutolife27]

Yes, they knew they would have a buffer when they announced the estimated ranges last november. They probably had not decided on the exact number at that time, which is one of the reasons for calling it an "estimate".

The buffer will not be announced tell after the EPA is done. I think you figure out why that is. Your usually on top of things Tim. ?

 

[timbop]

I get some of your points. But again the model 3 is a car. the Mache is an SUV. I can't buy a Geo metro and expect it to have the same as an f-150. The segment is not the same. That is the problem with your pricing. You are going from a cheaper segment to a higher one. If Ford made the Mache as a car like a tesla model 3 then the price would be about 45,000 so around the same price.

56,409 is what a first edition is right now. not 58,300. take away the 7,500 and the cost is 48,909.

Your mistake is using logic and facts. Start with "Elon musk said the MME is only competition for the model Y"

 

[Shayne]

Yes, they knew they would have a buffer when they announced the estimated ranges last november. They probably had not decided on the exact number at that time, which is one of the reasons for calling it an "estimate".

Sound pretty positive on that. You work for Ford, have an in with the design team? I know during our projects preliminary/original estimate are class C at best and design decisions over the course of the project have an impact on final results. I could hypothesizes they got their estimated range with less battery; hence the range grab. Possible the 88 KWh was not even in the equation for the original estimates.

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