Battery degrading after 16000 miles?

[kdonnel]

The battery degrades just by getting older. Nothing you can do about that no matter what percentage you keep the battery and how little you DCFC.

Age could account for as much as 1.5%-2% a year in degradation.

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[Blue highway]

Do we have a definitive answer as to if ODB2 is an accurate representation of HVB SOH on the MME?

... This is the internet... people will argue about whether something is definitive... forever.

The SOH algorithm is reasonable and seems to align within a few percent when people do full charge, full discharge tests... I think being within a few percent is fine.

I'd want to know this figure when comparing two of the same model used EVs. The algorithms are not comparable between makes, (don't compare Hyundai to Ford for instance) but comparing the same model car side by side... yeah, I think it is better than directionally correct.

Wild ass guess... in ~ 5 more years, we will see that cars that are DCFC a lot, or are stored in high temperatures, will be at the lower end of comparable SOH vs cars that live in temperate garages and are only L2 charged... and used buyers will look at battery SOH in terms of value... maybe as much as mileage.

 

[Jim622]

I would not be so concerned about a cheap scanner's numbers. Unless you can actually read individual cell voltage and contactor voltage, you will not get a good representation. I am using a Top the top of the line Snapon scanner at a cost of 12K and another 1200 per year in software updates. I am in the business and have a need. I don't recommend you run out and spend this amount of money. That being said I drive lots of miles and charge to 100% on L2 every night. With 40K miles and 2 years of service, my car shows NO Battery degrading. Every cell will charge to full capacity, and all are within .01 volts of each other. I am not concerned about charging to 100%.
What is more concerning is this heat wave. Constant high temperature is hard on a battery. When driving, your car will circulate coolant through the battery to help keep the temperature constant. When you stop and turn off your car, that coolant is no longer circulating. I have seen the battery temperature go above 140 degrees. I am curious to see what the battery looks like after this summer's heat wave.

 

[Logal727]

... This is the internet... people will argue about whether something is definitive... forever.

The SOH algorithm is reasonable and seems to align within a few percent when people do full charge, full discharge tests... I think being within a few percent is fine.

I'd want to know this figure when comparing two of the same model used EVs. The algorithms are not comparable between makes, (don't compare Hyundai to Ford for instance) but comparing the same model car side by side... yeah, I think it is better than directionally correct.

Wild ass guess... in ~ 5 more years, we will see that cars that are DCFC a lot, or are stored in high temperatures, will be at the lower end of comparable SOH vs cars that live in temperate garages and are only L2 charged... and used buyers will look at battery SOH in terms of value... maybe as much as mileage.

Is it good enough for a warranty claim though? They don't just check SOH with a reader do they?

 

[azerik]

32k Cali/AZ car 96% based off carscanner.

I believe it's 80% SOH at 8 years. Any less is possible warranty, but, they're going to go over every inch of the car before agreeing to replacing a 7.5 year old battery at 79.25% SOH.

Which reminds me I need to see if I can get these numbers from my 32kWH pack in my FFE that's been charged to 100% constantly, left in the sun unplugged every day of it's life. I'm sure the pack constantly gets over 135 as it's a split pack so 1/2 of it sits inside the car, because the inside doesn't get 'that' hot right? lol

 

[kodiakng]

I would not be so concerned about a cheap scanner's numbers.

just to clarify: CarScanner and similar apps reading OBD2 data are just reading the data values the car's modules report. the cost of the software doesn't change the data point. granted, i'm sure the snapon system has more features but for our laymen's purposes the data point the car reports is relevant and useful.

 

[mkhuffman]

just to clarify: CarScanner and similar apps reading OBD2 data are just reading the data values the car's modules report. the cost of the software doesn't change the data point. granted, i'm sure the snapon system has more features but for our laymen's purposes the data point the car reports is relevant and useful.

You are correct - the scanner just reads what the car is reporting. The cost of the scanner is not relevant.

For a warranty claim, the actual health of the battery will need to be verified by Ford technicians, which is not a short process. I think Lee has posted the process previously. They will not use the car's estimated SoH for a warranty claim. However, you could use it as evidence to get them to test the battery to see if it has degraded enough to be covered.

 

[Maquis]

32k Cali/AZ car 96% based off carscanner.

I believe it's 80% SOH at 8 years. Any less is possible warranty, but, they're going to go over every inch of the car before agreeing to replacing a 7.5 year old battery at 79.25% SOH.

Which reminds me I need to see if I can get these numbers from my 32kWH pack in my FFE that's been charged to 100% constantly, left in the sun unplugged every day of it's life. I'm sure the pack constantly gets over 135 as it's a split pack so 1/2 of it sits inside the car, because the inside doesn't get 'that' hot right? lol

I think the threshold is 70% in 8 years for warranty.

 

[kodiakng]

I think the threshold is 70% in 8 years for warranty.

my preferred SoH curve for long term ownership:

 

[azerik]

As far as I ever heard on the Focus forum; no battery has been replaced over SOH but many have due to cracked coolant, which happened well before SOH could degrade.

 

[Mach-Lee]

As far as I ever heard on the Focus forum; no battery has been replaced over SOH but many have due to cracked coolant, which happened well before SOH could degrade.

IIRC the FFE doesn't have the 70% capacity warranty, only against other major failures. I think the MME was the first Ford EV that has a capacity warranty.

 

[Blue highway]

Is it good enough for a warranty claim though? They don't just check SOH with a reader do they?

The SOH is calculated by the onboard algorithm and it is clearly pretty close to observed capacity when tested so the SOH figure appears to be a good indicator if a car is in trouble or not. The scanner used does not change the SOH figure... it just reads it from the onboard battery management system.

I don't think anyone has come anywhere close to finding out how warranty claims will go so we don't have any track record to stand on exactly. It is likely that a discharge test would be done to validate a warranty claim... but if your SOH is 65%... based on what we are seeing, your car is not going to pass. time will tell.

 

[Jim622]

just to clarify: CarScanner and similar apps reading OBD2 data are just reading the data values the car's modules report. the cost of the software doesn't change the data point. granted, i'm sure the snapon system has more features but for our laymen's purposes the data point the car reports is relevant and useful.

That is my point exactly. Your cheap scanner doesn't have the ability to read the data you need to make a proper diagnosis. All it can do is read the most basic data reported by the ECM. You need to dig way deeper to get a clear picture of what is going on.

 

[Jim622]

32k Cali/AZ car 96% based off carscanner.

I believe it's 80% SOH at 8 years. Any less is possible warranty, but, they're going to go over every inch of the car before agreeing to replacing a 7.5 year old battery at 79.25% SOH.

Which reminds me I need to see if I can get these numbers from my 32kWH pack in my FFE that's been charged to 100% constantly, left in the sun unplugged every day of it's life. I'm sure the pack constantly gets over 135 as it's a split pack so 1/2 of it sits inside the car, because the inside doesn't get 'that' hot right? lol

I would love to see those numbers

 

[RickMachE]

Let's keep in mind the reality.

In addition to Ford being the one that determines whether a battery meets the 70% threshold at 8 year / 100,000 miles or not, they also hold the reserve capacity in... reserve, for this very purpose.

7kW of the battery is not usable. In 7+ years, they see the trend is to say 68%. They realize another few kW, and viola, 71%.

I'd also point out that Darren Palmer has stated they expect to EXCEED the 70% number by a good margin.

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