Deciding between a standard or extended range battery

[silverelan]

@mattsaradan, typically I'd go with the EV adage "Range is King", but if the 210 miles EPA target is legit for the AWD, then I think it'll be fine for the 75.7kWh pack. There aren't too many tradeoffs with the smaller pack.

For smaller batteries in the 30-40kWh bracket with like 100-150 miles, the shorter range has a detrimental effect. This is due to the need to cycle thru the battery at a higher frequency for the same distance compared to a bigger battery. You can expect 1200-1500 cycles on a li-ion pack that's spent most of its life between 20-80% (actual not indicated) state of charge.

1200 cycles on pack mileage:
34kWh 120 mile pack = 144,000 miles
vs
76kwh 210 mile pack = 252,000 miles
vs
99kWh 270 mile pack = 324,000 miles

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[dbsb3233]

@mattsaradan, typically I'd go with the EV adage "Range is King", but if the 210 miles EPA target is legit for the AWD, then I think it'll be fine for the 75.7kWh pack. There aren't too many tradeoffs with the smaller pack.

For smaller batteries in the 30-40kWh bracket with like 100-150 miles, the shorter range has a detrimental effect. This is due to the need to cycle thru the battery at a higher frequency for the same distance compared to a bigger battery. You can expect 1200-1500 cycles on a li-ion pack that's spent most of its life between 20-80% (actual not indicated) state of charge.

1200 cycles on pack mileage:
34kWh 120 mile pack = 144,000 miles
vs
76kwh 210 mile pack = 252,000 miles
vs
99kWh 270 mile pack = 324,000 miles

252,000 miles should last me until I'm 90yo.

 

[cjljr41]

I'm beginning to consider that perhaps the larger battery pack will be better for me, not so much for the extra range, but for the extra juice to power the heater and seats in the winter. Also, doesn't cold weather deplete the batteries quicker?

 

[dbsb3233]

I'm beginning to consider that perhaps the larger battery pack will be better for me, not so much for the extra range, but for the extra juice to power the heater and seats in the winter. Also, doesn't cold weather deplete the batteries quicker?

Yes,. Cold weather, highway speeds (especially >65), using heat and A/C, etc all put a serious dent in BEV efficiency (and thus range). Possibly combining for as much as 50% off advertised range. And of course you usually want to have a safety buffer on the bottom end. And many say it's best to charge to only 80-90% for most of your routine charging.

That's why I'm thinking something around 100 miles (maybe 120) is the safe around-home range to plan for if settling for the SR battery. If I had, say, a 150 mile frequent commute, I'd pay the $5000 for the ER battery.

 

[Sweetwater]

Everyone is doing the math correct. But no one has put in the "regeneration "
milage you will create. And if you drive like a race car none of this will apply
to you.

 

[dbsb3233]

Everyone is doing the math correct. But no one has put in the "regeneration "
milage you will create. And if you drive like a race car none of this will apply
to you.

Some of that may be included in the range calculations. But it's the usual Catch-22... where you get more regenerative breaking is in city driving. You get virtually none of it on highway driving. But range is rarely an issue for driving around the city (which for most people means around-home driving from your overnight home charge). It's highway driving (road trips) where range really matters for most. And that's where you get almost no regenerative breaking.

I've often summed the Catch-22 up as: "Where we get range, we don't need it; and where we need range, we don't get it".

 

[timbop]

Yes,. Cold weather, highway speeds (especially >65), using heat and A/C, etc all put a serious dent in BEV efficiency (and thus range). Possibly combining for as much as 50% off advertised range. And of course you usually want to have a safety buffer on the bottom end. And many say it's best to charge to only 80-90% for most of your routine charging.

That's why I'm thinking something around 100 miles (maybe 120) is the safe around-home range to plan for if settling for the SR battery. If I had, say, a 150 mile frequent commute, I'd pay the $5000 for the ER battery.

I've got a 95 mile a day commute, with 50 miles of it on the NJ turnpike and 45 on back roads. Doing the initial back-of-the-envelope calculation meant that RWD with the SR battery should be OK, but the AWD with SR might be pushing it. So, I started doing research and asked for real-world driving experience, published articles etc. Since I am a nerd I created a spreadsheet with the "best guesses" from those sources, which include range penalties for highway, summer, and winter driving. What is missing from that analysis is accurate information on how much of a battery reserve Ford will put in; I've tried reading the tea leaves from various interviews and the AMA on Reddit and I have a feeling they will have a reasonable buffer of around 15%. If that is true, then:

• Charging to 90% of the usable range every day will keep me under the recommended max daily charge of 80% to get longevity.
• In the worst case of winter with AWD, when the car is new I'll have 24 miles left when I get home - plenty of cushion. However, as the pack degrades to 90%, the cushion goes down to 12 miles - which means I might have to drive a little slower with less heat
• The RWD will be fine up until the battery loses 15% capacity - leaving me with 16 miles when I get home

All of this is a best guess. If Ford has a much smaller buffer and I can only charge to 80%, then the AWD will only have 11 miles left in the brand new battery in winter and can't get me home unless I charge to 90% capacity when the battery degrades to 90% of original capacity. On the flip side, if the buffer is larger and you can essentially use all of the projected 210 mile range then the AWD is fine through 20% battery degradation.

I drove myself crazy trying to noodle this out, until I realized I can't really make any decision until Ford gives out ACTUAL, USABLE information on buffer size and range.

 

[dbsb3233]

Here's another thought... if they put in a bigger buffer, then it should mean you can charge higher to 90 or even 100 without much concern.

And on the very worst days, you can always find a charger and add 25 miles in 5 minutes. Should be a rarity.

From what you've described, I think I'd save the $5000 now. Battery degradation sound like it's minimal on the newest batteries. Almost a non-issue. On the slim chance you need a battery pack replacement in 5 years, they should be cheaper and better then. And you have 5 grand in your pocket to put toward it. Not to mention the NJ tax credits.

 

[zhackwyatt]

From what you've described, I think I'd save the $5000 now. Battery degradation sound like it's minimal on the newest batteries. Almost a non-issue.

Living in a hot climate where permanent damage can occur via heat I'm still concerned.

 

[silverelan]

"Where we get range, we don't need it; and where we need range, we don't get it".

Oh man, if only that were true. I do much of my driving in an urban environment and my Outback with a 18.5gal tank gets only 350 miles or so in the winter rain before I have to refuel. Putting in $50 to go 350 miles sucks.

I'm also looking forward to when I'll always have a "full tank" every day. Rarely is my gas tank full so the theoretical max range isn't realistic because I'm sitting on less than 100% in my driveway.

Lastly, I have to think about major earthquakes. If one happens, whatever gas I have in the tank is what I'm stuck with. My chances of 250 miles or more range in the Mach-E are higher than my Outback's.

 

[dbsb3233]

Oh man, if only that were true. I do much of my driving in an urban environment and my Outback with a 18.5gal tank gets only 350 miles or so in the winter rain before I have to refuel. Putting in $50 to go 350 miles sucks.

I'm also looking forward to when I'll always have a "full tank" every day. Rarely is my gas tank full so the theoretical max range isn't realistic because I'm sitting on less than 100% in my driveway.

Lastly, I have to think about major earthquakes. If one happens, whatever gas I have in the tank is what I'm stuck with. My chances of 250 miles or more range in the Mach-E are higher than my Outback's.

That quote was referring to BEVs, not ICE.

And of course there's always exceptions. It's referring to most people's around-home usage. Most people don't drive >100 miles in their daily commutes and running around near home. But some do. Some (famously in CA) might have a 200 mile round-trip commute. Some might have a job (like realtors, or pizza deliver drivers) that use their person car for work for 8-10 hours. But those are exceptions. That's not most people. The typical amount of driving for most people in the US is surely less than 50 miles.

But it's just the opposite when going on a longer drive (road trip). A 210-300 mile range is more than enough for the typical daily commute, but problematic (when combined with slow charging and high speed losses) for long road trips.

 

[dbsb3233]

If it were a $500 upgrade, I'd tend to agree. But it's not. It's a $5000 upgrade. That's some serious coin, and worthy of a serious consideration for "will I really use it?" and "will it actually make a difference?".

If I had a 150 mile commute every day, absolutely I'd get the ER. If it were my only vehicle and I needed to take extended road trips many times each year, I'd get the ER.

But if I typically drive less than 100 miles/day, and I have a 2nd vehicle (ICE) in the house that I can easily choose to use anytime I need to go further (particularly on road trips), then no, it doesn't make much sense to pay the extra $5000, because it won't get used.

And other than saving $5000 for something I won't use, there's also slight performance improvements from not carrying around the extra 300+ pounds. And slightly lower power consumption too (better energy efficiency).

 

[dbsb3233]

Yes and Yes for you maybe. No and No for others. You can't just say it's automatically Yes for everyone. (Well, you can say it I suppose, but doesn't mean it's correct.)

Money may be no object for some people. Then it's easy. But $5000 is a big enough number for most people to give it well-reasoned, logical contemplation for whether it's really worth it for their situation.

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