Explained: The Thermal Problem with Mach-E

[silverelan]

It is annoying, and having the power meter really highlights how bad it actually is. I live right next to a highway, and get on for 1 mile to get up to a main road to go into town. Just accelerating to 70 and driving at that speed for about half a mile, I start to get the gray marks in the power meter limiting power. Normal driving at 70mph shouldn't start to cause thermal throttling.

ooof, you're giving me second thoughts.

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[benk016]

ooof, you're giving me second thoughts.

It wouldn't be so bad if they told you what was going on that is causing it to limit power. You really have no way to know. Is it motor temp, inverter temp, battery temp? Who knows. Or is it really just some arbitrary algorithm that decides that it needs to limit.

I've watched battery temp using OBD data, and its always nice and cool. I need to dig in more and see if I can find motor temps somewhere.

 

[buzznwood]

I had been thinking it might be good to get a GTPE and sell my FE, but watching Kyle's videos - including his video where he drives a GTPE, make me less interested in getting a GTPE. I don't drive like he does, so perhaps it makes little sense for me to own one, not worth the trouble and cost of that upgrade. One place we do agree is that most of his and my driving are in whisper mode.

I also wonder if some of the tire squealing on corners is due to understeer. In my Subarus I put a heavier rear sway bar which eliminated the tire squealing by making the steering more neutral.

As other have said you really need to take one for a drive an see what you think, the main benefit will be the magneride as it can give you a far more refined ride. I pretty much tootle around in whisper mode all of the time however this is more due to Fords boneheaded decision of not giving users a custom mode like other manufactures where we can pick and chose from the various presets my ideal everyday setup would be a pick and mix from all three for suspension, lift off regen, throttle response and steering weight.

Contrary to most a performance vehicle really doesn't need to have masses of power to be fun and enjoyable to drive and Ford do have the talent to do that but those engineers appear not have have been anywhere near the mach-e to quote top gear on the mach-e "European Ford does great steering but US Ford doesn’t" and it is the steering that really lets it down far more for me than the limitations on power and why even if the power limitations where fixed I couldn't with a straight face call it a performance vehicle for those that enjoying driving beyond straight lines.

At the end of the day this is still a vehicle that started out life as a replacement for the focus electric / c-max energy where the main objective would have been to get a 300 mile range, the late design change to getting it to wear a mustang inspired frock may well have enabled a GT derivative and allowed marketing to sell on perceived performance expectations that are at present not really backed up by the engineering.

As a better looking (subjective I know) and further refined version of the awd premium with a hefty boost in low down torque that is beneficial for everyday driving with only a marginal hit in range the GTPE is very much worth a look, those after a true performance BEV you will need to look elsewhere.

 

[buzznwood]

ooof, you're giving me second thoughts.

It really doesn't take much for the gray bars of shame to appear in the power meter, especially when traveling at freeway speeds. In most everyday town driving most would probably never notice it all as the instant torque allows you to quickly get into the flow of traffic which will be relatively slow so you do not need much throttle to get up to speed.

 

[breeves002]

I notice unless I get to a really low state of charge the power limit kicks down a *TINY* bit at about 70% SoC. Above 70% it usually give you full power unless it is really cold or really hot. Even then that 90%+ power it gives you is fine.

I have driven 30+ minutes highway without it kicking any kind of a limit at higher SoC. I don't think that's a thermal issue. They're just conservative on voltage drop when your max power output is 1050A from the battery with no limit.

When I really noticed limits was road tripping it. Going for 12+ hours after DCFC at EA I'd see a 70% or lower limit that would gradually go up to about 90% until SOC got down to about 30% then it crept back to that 70% or lower.

What they need to fix is the limit coming down at higher speeds of high throttle. I don't think the 90% limit we see a lot is an issue as of now. The car is plenty quick even at decently low states of charge (20-30%).

 

[PNWEV]

I suppose I've always been fans of products that suffer from terrible marketing (Microsoft/Windows Phone, anyone?) I think the problem with the MME is its very middle-of-the-road nature. It's more comfortable than the Polestar 2 (in terms of size) or MY (in terms of ride), but the ID.4 seems a bit more cushy. It's more performance-oriented than the ID.4, but isn't as good as the MY. It's cheaper than the MY and Polestar 2, but the ID.4 is cheaper.

I like balance - I like something I can DD, not pay a ton of money for, but is a bit more fun than the average car.

A loaded polestar 2 is $68k while a loaded gtpe is $69k. To be frank, after the last couple videos I’m seriously considering ordering a polestar and just letting them race for delivery, first one to get here wins.

I know the polestar is theoretically down 80 horsepower and 130 lbft of torque, but recent drives show that it doesn’t thermal throttle nearly as bad which means it has usable power for much longer without the unbridled extend which just cuts power anyway.

 

[ElectrifyCLT]

I notice unless I get to a really low state of charge the power limit kicks down a *TINY* bit at about 70% SoC. Above 70% it usually give you full power unless it is really cold or really hot. Even then that 90%+ power it gives you is fine.

I have driven 30+ minutes highway without it kicking any kind of a limit at higher SoC. I don't think that's a thermal issue. They're just conservative on voltage drop when your max power output is 1050A from the battery with no limit.

When I really noticed limits was road tripping it. Going for 12+ hours after DCFC at EA I'd see a 70% or lower limit that would gradually go up to about 90% until SOC got down to about 30% then it crept back to that 70% or lower.

What they need to fix is the limit coming down at higher speeds of high throttle. I don't think the 90% limit we see a lot is an issue as of now. The car is plenty quick even at decently low states of charge (20-30%).

Based on your experience I concur it sounds like software.

More broadly, it sounds like more and more EV companies are getting caught out with the notion of an "overboost" function being the "Standard" performance profile. Audi Q4 Etron doesn't give you full power ever when under 80% SOC. In the Mach-E, the thermals are conservative in allowing a user to tap into that overboost.

We need better transparency about the true performance envelopes of these cars.

 

[breeves002]

Based on your experience I concur it sounds like software.

More broadly, it sounds like more and more EV companies are getting caught out with the notion of an "overboost" function being the "Standard" performance profile. Audi Q4 Etron doesn't give you full power ever when under 80% SOC. In the Mach-E, the thermals are conservative in allowing a user to tap into that overboost.

We need better transparency about the true performance envelopes of these cars.

The regular E Tron also doesn't give you full power unless you put it into sport driving mode. When I drove my bosses around for a bit I set my profile to default to sport.

When you think about it, 1050A is a lot of current. The Plaids 2500A is just mind boggling.

 

[silverelan]

If the issue is, as Kyle explained it, the motors and the inverters are being pre-emptively nannied to prevent overheating, then the engineers have put in some serious margins that theoretically could be dialed back to provide more power for longer.

@breeves002 are you ever seeing high temps in the pack? The point was made in the podcast that the MME pack is huge and has a lot of thermal inertia so it shouldn't be the weak point.

 

[breeves002]

If the issue is, as Kyle explained it, the motors and the inverters are being pre-emptively nannied to prevent overheating, then the engineers have put in some serious margins that theoretically could be dialed back to provide more power for longer.

@breeves002 are you ever seeing high temps in the pack? The point was made in the podcast that the MME pack is huge and has a lot of thermal inertia so it shouldn't be the weak point.

I did not look during my road trip as that is when I bought the car and didn't have any kind of scan tools with me.

One time I DCFC it at a 50kW charger (125A) and after that I went out and just railed it up and down this back road. The motors trans fluid hit about 50ºC...which is really cold if we're being honest, and the battery pack hit about 30ºC. It takes a LOT to get that thing to heat up. It was limiting me though...likely conservatively due to inverter temps. Coolant was still pretty cold.

I would like to see it after a nice track session but I'm betting it isn't an issue with driving. The bigger issue is DCFC at like 450A. Will heat up the pack pretty fast. I haven't looked at pack temps during that but will eventually.

 

[highland58]

As other have said you really need to take one for a drive an see what you think, the main benefit will be the magneride as it can give you a far more refined ride. I pretty much tootle around in whisper mode all of the time however this is more due to Fords boneheaded decision of not giving users a custom mode like other manufactures where we can pick and chose from the various presets my ideal everyday setup would be a pick and mix from all three for suspension, lift off regen, throttle response and steering weight.

Contrary to most a performance vehicle really doesn't need to have masses of power to be fun and enjoyable to drive and Ford do have the talent to do that but those engineers appear not have have been anywhere near the mach-e to quote top gear on the mach-e "European Ford does great steering but US Ford doesn’t" and it is the steering that really lets it down far more for me than the limitations on power and why even if the power limitations where fixed I couldn't with a straight face call it a performance vehicle for those that enjoying driving beyond straight lines.

At the end of the day this is still a vehicle that started out life as a replacement for the focus electric / c-max energy where the main objective would have been to get a 300 mile range, the late design change to getting it to wear a mustang inspired frock may well have enabled a GT derivative and allowed marketing to sell on perceived performance expectations that are at present not really backed up by the engineering.

As a better looking (subjective I know) and further refined version of the awd premium with a hefty boost in low down torque that is beneficial for everyday driving with only a marginal hit in range the GTPE is very much worth a look, those after a true performance BEV you will need to look elsewhere.

Thank you, I would like to take one for a test drive, hopefully I can do that before too long. I do like the idea of ala carte tuning modes. The steering does seem weak, my Outback was better.

 

[pt19713]

I did not look during my road trip as that is when I bought the car and didn't have any kind of scan tools with me.

One time I DCFC it at a 50kW charger (125A) and after that I went out and just railed it up and down this back road. The motors trans fluid hit about 50ºC...which is really cold if we're being honest, and the battery pack hit about 30ºC. It takes a LOT to get that thing to heat up. It was limiting me though...likely conservatively due to inverter temps. Coolant was still pretty cold.

I would like to see it after a nice track session but I'm betting it isn't an issue with driving. The bigger issue is DCFC at like 450A. Will heat up the pack pretty fast. I haven't looked at pack temps during that but will eventually.

Are you able to view the actual temps of the motors, not just the oil temp?

On my Y, the front motors can hit 252F/122C, rear motors 196F/91C. Battery pack during L3 charging is typically max 131F/55C but I've seen it hit 135F/57C once. The car wants the battery to be at least 115F/46C l, which is when it has the Stator motors stop generating heat.

 

[benk016]

If the issue is, as Kyle explained it, the motors and the inverters are being pre-emptively nannied to prevent overheating, then the engineers have put in some serious margins that theoretically could be dialed back to provide more power for longer.

@breeves002 are you ever seeing high temps in the pack? The point was made in the podcast that the MME pack is huge and has a lot of thermal inertia so it shouldn't be the weak point.

I think the highest I've seen the pack temp is around 100F, and there is a CHGACT (not sure what part that actually is) that i've seen hit 114F. And thats after a DCFC.

Typically if I haven't charged and just driving it averages between 75F-90F in the pack.

 

[voxel]

I think his problem with the Mach E is that its a mustang and should have better performance driving.

The ID.4 doesn't try to be a performance car. So he doesn't judge it as one.

Correct. As a former ID.4 owner... you can't compare it to the Select RWD (which is the same price as the base Pro) because the ID.4 RWD is a 270+ mile range for $39K MSRP (plus $1.1K destination) which actually gets 300 miles in mixed driving from my experience.

ID.4 is a family SUV with a family friendly price for the range. The RT1 RWD with the same range is $10K more than the ID.4 Pro RWD.

 

[Riotous]

I haven't been watching Kyle for very long, but i think it's clear from his GTPE review out in SF that he was SUPER EXCITED for the GTPE, his expectations were so high, and that he had every intention of buying one for himself. Re-watch the vid. He was SO STOKED for Unbridled Extend, he thought it was some SUPER PERFORMANCE more that would let him race the car forever. And then when he realized it wasn't what he expected, he started to deflate. He wanted to love the GTPE, specifically for this mode, and it let him down. He was crestfallen. Towards the end of the video he still says he's thinking about buying one (but subconsciously he is already going through denial-sadness-acceptance). And then he says it is WAY better than Tesla Y Performance in every way (performance wise). Watching the videos since then it's been a continuing downward spiral till he get to "it's garbage" - this is a fanboy who feels betrayed. He really had the wrong idea about the extend mode. Oh well. It's still a monster car, as he says in this podcast...

Regarding the thermals, he says it goes into "Turtle Mode" after 5 minutes. Do you all concur on this? Has anyone done a hill climb or long twisty run in simply 'unbridled' and been totally let down? If so, i haven't read it on this forum or seen vid about it. It hasn't happened to me. But then again, I live outside Houston, and we don't have any hills to climb, or any twisty roads. Damn. =

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