Is the Mach-E really 7 years behind Tesla?

[dbsb3233]

What people do not understand is the battery cost in EV's is a substantial portion of the cost. The battery of the MME is substantially larger than the Y. This is a major bonus on the side of Ford but never mentioned?

Yes and no. Depends on how you look at it. If the MME got the same miles/kWh, the larger battery would translate into longer range, which would be a big plus. But the MME appears to have lower miles/kWh, which means the bigger battery is needed just to make it close. That's actually worse since it means longer time to charge it, and more weight.

But the lower miles/kWh is worth it to me because it enables style and shape I like better, even if it's not quite as aerodynamic.

Sponsored

 

[timbop]

The amusing thing is that the model Y got a $3000 price drop AFTER all the first order were filled. So those that preordered/bought the car right away got screwed out of $3000 if they had just waited a month. That's a nice slap in the face to those schmoes who begged Musk to sell them a Y.

Ford is giving the price decrease to EVERYONE including the early adopters instead of screwing them, and yet somehow that is a mark against Ford.

SMH

 

[Woeo]

I wouldn't throw stones here. Grabber Blue is a $16,000 upcharge on Mach-E since it requires First Edition.

Was that a stone?

How much is the MY in Grabber Blue?

 

[Nak]

How much is the MY in Grabber Blue?

About $4K.

 

[Shayne]

Yes and no. Depends on how you look at it. If the MME got the same miles/kWh, the larger battery would translate into longer range, which would be a big plus. But the MME appears to have lower miles/kWh, which means the bigger battery is needed just to make it close. That's actually worse since it means longer time to charge it, and more weight.

But the lower miles/kWh is worth it to me because it enables style and shape I like better, even if it's not quite as aerodynamic.

How do you know the MME is so much lower in efficiency compared to Tesla's pacer? Have you seen the EPA results and w/mi? Right now in the SUV segment it is Kona #1, Model Y #2 but who knows? Kona has a smaller battery than the model Y and the Y is smaller than MME. It appears all manufactures are on similar paths. It is not rocket science and electric motors and wheel bearings are not new. I hope MME is not that far off the Y; but a bigger battery (more power) is heavier and therefore will have an impact that needs to be made up elsewhere. If it is such that the 88 produces more range than the 75 in the tesla that is a bonus.

 

[dbsb3233]

How do you know the MME is so much lower in efficiency compared to Tesla's pacer? Have you seen the EPA results and w/mi? Right now in the SUV segment it is Kona #1, Model Y #2 but who knows? Kona has a smaller battery than the model Y and the Y is smaller than MME. It appears all manufactures are on similar paths. It is not rocket science and electric motors and wheel bearings are not new. I hope MME is not that far off the Y; but a bigger battery (more power) is heavier and therefore will have an impact that needs to be made up elsewhere. If it is such that the 88 produces more range than the 75 in the tesla that is a bonus.

MME EPA numbers aren't out yet, but Ford's estimates are surely pretty close... 270 miles projected on the AWD ER, 98.8 kWh full battery (88 usable). 270 / 88 = 3.07 miles/kWh.

Model Y AWD LR 316 miles range, 75 kWh full battery (est. ~72 usable). 316 / 72 = 4.39 miles/kWh.

Even if you tweak the usable battery up for the MY, and tweak the MME EPA range up a little, it's still not close.

 

[kdryden99]

Was that a stone?

How much is the MY in Grabber Blue?

At this point just ignore him. He's a troll. I've never seen anybody be so negative about something that they wanted to buy

 

[Nak]

The amusing thing is that the model Y got a $3000 price drop AFTER all the first order were filled. So those that preordered/bought the car right away got screwed out of $3000 if they had just waited a month. That's a nice slap in the face to those schmoes who begged Musk to sell them a Y.

Not true. I got one of the very first Y's delivered. I just priced a Y on Tesla's website and a Y optioned identical to mine is $40 more than what I paid. Yes, you can get a base model with no options cheaper than the first month, but no bare bones Y's were delivered the first moth. In fact, the non-performance model Y included several thousand dollars worth of options in excess of what the first buyers paid for. Regardless, early adopters always pay more. That's part of life. Especially in a pandemic.

 

[efisher]

I wouldn't throw stones here. Grabber Blue is a $16,000 upcharge on Mach-E since it requires First Edition.

That is just stupid. If that is the best defense you can come up with than Tesla is doomed.

 

[efisher]

My Focus went back to the dealer 12 times before it was at the same mileage my Tesla is now... and it's only gone back twice. Far as my evidence suggests, Ford's quality is 6x worse than Tesla's if we're going by anecdotes.

If you could afford a Tesla, what are you doing driving a Focus. Sounds like fiction to me.

 

[JCHLi]

So if Ford if 7 years behind Tesla, and per another topic, Ford will be bankrupt in 4 years... Let me do the math real quick.... Then Tesla must be bankrupt for the past 3 years... Yup, that checks out.

 

[Nak]

How do you know the MME is so much lower in efficiency compared to Tesla's pacer? .... It is not rocket science and electric motors and wheel bearings are not new.

It's pretty obvious because efficiency is more than electric motors and wheel bearings. It's also aerodynamics and weight. The same thing that makes the Mach-e look more like a muscle car also makes it have more drag. Plus, 600 pounds of weight is not a little deal. The heat pump implementation is also going to be a big deal. It will be interesting to see if Ford can match it. It's not just a heat pump, it's the octovalve that allows the Y to draw waste heat from the motors and battery to help heat the cabin. One system heats and cools the cabin, the motors, and the batteries, moving heat where it needs to be either used or dispersed. I truly hope Ford can do the same thing. Opinions about that are irrelevant, either they'll be able to or they won't. The proof will be in the tear down.

If you're unfamiliar with the octovalve, just watch Sandy Munro's tear down video covering that.

 

[macchiaz-o]

If you could afford a Tesla, what you doing driving a Focus. Sounds like fiction to me.

That's not a fair conclusion. I considered the Model S in 2013 because I wanted to go electric and it would have been fun to drive... But I went with the Fiesta instead, because I'm also frugal, the Fiesta is minimally taxing to the environment as far as ICE cars go, and the Tesla wasn't worth the additional $65k+ (not including its probable higher maintenance costs over 7 years of ownership).

 

[macchiaz-o]

I've never seen anybody be so negative about something that they wanted to buy

No way. We've had far worse here.

And I'm not ready to call any of the currently active members trolls... Some are close, but I'm not naming them.

 

[timbop]

MME EPA numbers aren't out yet, but Ford's estimates are surely pretty close... 270 miles projected on the AWD ER, 98.8 kWh full battery (88 usable). 270 / 88 = 3.07 miles/kWh.

Model Y AWD LR 316 miles range, 75 kWh full battery (est. ~72 usable). 316 / 72 = 4.39 miles/kWh.

Even if you tweak the usable battery up for the MY, and tweak the MME EPA range up a little, it's still not close.

I will wholeheartedly agree that Tesla's reported range looks like it will be 25% - 30% better than what we assume the Mach E's will be. However, you can't ignore these factors:

1. Ford's 10% penalty for AWD is most likely an off-the-cuff conservative guess. I don't think it will be that high of a penalty. Just like they improved the 0-60 times by a good margin, I expect the efficiency to be much better. I'm already on record saying I see the RWD being in the 3.5-3.6 mi/kwh vicinity, and I would expect the AWD to be at least 3.25 to 3.3.
2. You yourself have pointed out many times that the EPA ratings don't really correlate to real world experiences, and Tesla is one if the few companies that doesn't just take the 30% penalty for estimating the corner cases. They actually went through additional testing procedures that netted them a 24% penalty instead of 30% - which is where the 316 came from. The taycan didn't do that, so it got a worse result than it likely would have if it completed all the tests
3. In head to head testing, Tesla underperforms its numbers and other manufacturers often overperform

Even with those considerations, I will grant that I believe the Y still has a 20% more fuel efficient platform - because Tesla uses so much aluminum. That's a double edged sword: it gets better efficiency, but in an accident it is much harder to fix and is more likely to simply be totaled. Given that it's Ford's first BEV with a pretty comprehensive feature list I certainly don't think they are 7 years behind - maybe 2 years. In either case they've hit the ground running and the MME will be excellent competition.

Oh, and I also expect some of the buffer will be opened up within a year just like with the model 3. So, by next year you might see a 15-20 mile increase in range

Sponsored