Is the Mach-E really 7 years behind Tesla?

TheSteelRider

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I just watched the first 20 minutes of that. OMG those 3 guys on the right (especially Zac) were awful. They really drank the koolaid.

Thank goodness for Chelsea and Ben for injecting some reality into the conversation. That helped me choose who to follow and who to dump.
I attended that Fully Charged event. Besides that session, other sessions were not all Tesla, in fact the other sessions the T-word was barely used. Fully Charged is a UK team, and most of the other panels and sessions were more globally-minded.

I cannot find the video now, but yes a year or maybe almost 2 ago Zac and Jessie did say they were Tesla investors. They also most of the times LOVE anything and everything that Elon says or does, and HATE anything anyone else says or does (yes, I'm generalizing).

Ben, well, his channel is called "Teslanomics" so, you be the judge :)

All that said, Ben's channel is super informative from a business standpoint (he's a numbers guy, I'm a numbers guy), and he's actually over the years gone from Tesla bonkers, to a more level-headed view. Zac and Jessie seem to have done the opposite.
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TheSteelRider

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I attended that Fully Charged event. Besides that session, other sessions were not all Tesla, in fact the other sessions the T-word was barely used. Fully Charged is a UK team, and most of the other panels and sessions were more globally-minded.

I cannot find the video now, but yes a year or maybe almost 2 ago Zac and Jessie did say they were Tesla investors. They also most of the times LOVE anything and everything that Elon says or does, and HATE anything anyone else says or does (yes, I'm generalizing).

Ben, well, his channel is called "Teslanomics" so, you be the judge :)

All that said, Ben's channel is super informative from a business standpoint (he's a numbers guy, I'm a numbers guy), and he's actually over the years gone from Tesla bonkers, to a more level-headed view. Zac and Jessie seem to have done the opposite.
Ok, here is a snippet of a recent video where they show snapbacks to a year ago, and they don't say the words "we own TSLA" but say they are "long term investors"

 

hybrid2bev

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Focusing on just the vehicles (exclusive of the charging network) at launch will the Mach-E be on par with the Model Y. Probably not. But that doesn't mean that the Mach-E couldn't be there with just a couple OTA updates to add features similar to full self driving.

If Tesla can update the driving range and charging speeds with a software update I don't see why Ford couldn't follow suit. That would put the Mach-E close enough to be very competitive in my book.
 

silverelan

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This was a badly stacked panel to cover this topic objectively.

I find Zac & Jessie from Now You Know to be good examples of the insufferable hardcore Tesla fanboys that are in various forums or article comments sections online.

Galileo Russell views Tesla purely through a stock market lens. He's previously been all over CNBC as a Tesla bull. He's done a lot for the Tesla retail investor community as he talks through his research and seems pretty transparent on results and forecasting. However, he's laser focused on Tesla and it skews his perspective.

Ben Sullins seems to have pivoted somewhat to be a bit more EV agnostic and I find myself increasingly respecting his opinions on EVs beyond Tesla. Besides moderator Chelsea Sexton, he was the only one to really push back on the narrative that Tesla is the end all be all of EVs.
 

dbsb3233

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I attended that Fully Charged event. Besides that session, other sessions were not all Tesla, in fact the other sessions the T-word was barely used. Fully Charged is a UK team, and most of the other panels and sessions were more globally-minded.

I cannot find the video now, but yes a year or maybe almost 2 ago Zac and Jessie did say they were Tesla investors. They also most of the times LOVE anything and everything that Elon says or does, and HATE anything anyone else says or does (yes, I'm generalizing).

Ben, well, his channel is called "Teslanomics" so, you be the judge :)

All that said, Ben's channel is super informative from a business standpoint (he's a numbers guy, I'm a numbers guy), and he's actually over the years gone from Tesla bonkers, to a more level-headed view. Zac and Jessie seem to have done the opposite.
I've seen all those guys in YouTube videos at one time or another in my various EV research. Although I'm not a regular follower of any of them. I have enjoyed Ben's comments as being reasoned and level-headed. (I'm a numbers guy too.) And I've watched a handful of Fully Charged videos (mostly good). I really like Sean Mitchell's stuff too.

I remember getting part way into videos of both guys on the right end and then just shutting it off. Their agendas and activist extremism drove me up the wall (more than just their Tesla fanboyism). Reminded me of idealistic college kids that have little idea how the real world works.
 


Cvdbos

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I tend to agree with your final sentence, with some caveats.

DCFC is very important for long road trips in a BEV (like 500+ miles). But long road trips are usually a very small part of driving for most people. As such, there's a tendency to overstate their importance toward the growth of BEVs into the mainstream market. The vast majority of most people's drives are handled with one full charge. 90% of the focus should be on home chargers and apartment chargers and maybe workplace chargers, not road trip chargers. 8-12 hour charges on L2, so you're good for the whole day and don't have to "ABC" (Always Be Charging at short stops throughout the day).
Agreed. Nevertheless even the DCFC is a matter of planning. Just saw a video on the news of rows of Tesla's at an highway gasstation waiting on their turn to charge. People on their way to their winter holiday without a proper planning.
Leave the highway an find a nice restaurant with charge capacity.
There is a growing amount of that in Europe.
But no, they all want there cheap charge possibility at a Tesla charge point like lemmings.
 

dbsb3233

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Focusing on just the vehicles (exclusive of the charging network) at launch will the Mach-E be on par with the Model Y. Probably not. But that doesn't mean that the Mach-E couldn't be there with just a couple OTA updates to add features similar to full self driving.

If Tesla can update the driving range and charging speeds with a software update I don't see why Ford couldn't follow suit. That would put the Mach-E close enough to be very competitive in my book.
And it doesn't need to be equal in every single checkbox to still be a very successful competitor. I'm expecting it to fall short of the Y on range. Most BEVs do relative to Teslas (for a variety of reasons). But not everyone needs that extra 25 miles (or whatever the number) of range. Or more autonomous driving features. Or the better built-out charging network. None of those are really useful to me, and I think millions of potential customers are in the same boat. Meaning they can still sell a boatload of MMEs to people in the similar boat.

For many potential buyers, being a Ford is a plus over Tesla. And having some Mustang styling is a plus over the Y. There's plenty of market share to go around.
 

buzznwood

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The only area where tesla are miles ahead is the charging network everyone else is limited to 3rd party options and as much as the manufactures are attempting to improves that with trying to simplify the access for the end user, it is still hopeless and until it matches the same experience as filling up an ice it will be going nowhere, I am not talking charge times the thought of faffying around with multiple apps and joining subscription services is idiotic.

At highways speeds the range on a BEV is hopeless, I work with a few hard core tesla owners and even they have now given up on the long range trips and have resorted to owning a hybrid for such trips, so while that charging network is a huge plus for most people the reality is plugging in at home / work and using the bev within the confines of a much smaller radius where fast charge times are less of an issue as the car is charging while you are sleeping / working.

There are a huge number of tesla fan boys out there, so no matter how good the legacy manufactures make a BEV it not being a tesla will automatically make it rubbish no matter how good to those eyes. You only have to see the response to porsche taycan out performing the model s and the numerous ev sites and forums. You would think the general ones would welcome any bev but no if it is not a tesla it is always down played.

While the tesla model Y is an potential alternative so far all I like is the online purchasing method but I can thankfully get that with a polestar 2. I just can't get past teslas lack of testing and playing fast and loose with the engineering. I can't be the only one that finds the need for an OTA update to fix braking performance shocking.
 

Machemark

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I could buy the 7 years statement in Tesla's skunkworks or experimental divisions only because they've been doing it for a while and most importantly they can attract that kind of talent. Tesla also has the means of production and build relationships for the supply chain. In that way they are undoubtedly ahead.

But if Ford is going to be debuting a car that is directly competing with Tesla at the end of the year. And to the eye test, it just means Ford is just a few months to a year behind. And that's nothing investment (and the will to push EVs forward) can't fix.

A few other comments from that video:

The panel says that every EV is looking like a Tesla. The first thing my wife said when she saw the Model 3 for the first time said it reminded her of our Prius.

Also they compare Tesla a lot to Apple, but Apple is only similar in status and that's about it. From marketing, the way they design and develop are totally different.

Back to the original point I think the 7 years comment was directed at the industry in general, and their respective investments in full EV.
 

eastern refugee

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My two cents.....EA is entirely owned by VW. EA is growing rapidly. it takes time. I live in California and if you go on the EA website you will see not only where they are now but where they are building more. the more aspect are for distance driving. For example between Bakersfield and LA there is only one. However MORE shows one in Castaic. I would assume that these MORE ones are already in the planning/building stages and will be done by the time both the Mach E and the new Volkswagen ID cars are available by the last quarter of this year. Both manufactures are stating that these are long drive cars. California overall is passing new discounts for going all electric. they would not be doing this if it were not going to have the infrastructure in place to make it happen.
 

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I would put the lead closer to 3 years. Back 7 years ago, Tesla was way behind on manufacturing, and although the supercharger network is superior, in a year time Ford's will be better than Tesla's was 6 years ago.

Despite the market cap, Ford is bigger than Tesla in terms of R&D, factories, etc... That said, they are not as focused, however they can close the distance faster (except maybe automatic driving) once they decide to.

I think to say Tesla has closer to a 3 year over Ford, and in 3 years it will be down to 1 year lead.
 

jlauro

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silverelan

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Is Tesla 7 years ahead? Depends on what we're measuring by and even then, any lead is fleeting.

Performance: No. Based on current target specs, the inferred efficiency, range and charging speeds appear to be on par with a Model S/X from March 2019.

Autonomy: Unknown. Tesla's Enhanced Autopilot/FSD is so good that Consumer Reports says it's actually dangerous (lulls users into false sense of security). We don't know how good Ford's Copilot Assist 360 is nor do we know how good Ford's handsfree system is. imo, autonomy is overrated. 73% of Tesla buyers opted not to buy FSD when it was priced at $6000. I doubt the take rate has improved since the price jumped. People just want to drive their car and Autosteer + Adaptive Cruise Control is good enough.

Charging: Yeah, maybe. Tesla's integrated network of Urban, V2 and V3 Superchargers are amazing in quantity, geographically well placed and seamless from the users perspective. Combine that with Tesla's program to give away destination chargers to hotels and other popular places, and it is unmatched by any other OEM. In the USA, Ford and other legacy OEMs just don't get it.
 

ab13

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That is compared to VW, and despite what some people think, I place Ford ahead of VW (all talk, little show) for EV. Until the Mach E is shipping and someone does a tear-down, it highly speculative at this point where the Mach E compares to Tesla...
Much of this has to do with the way the vehicle's design goals are set. Tesla removed a lot things from the vehicle so they could put the money in the drivetrain, and most early adopters accept the trade offs. Non early adopters may not, and so the average car buyer may consider their options more in the future. At this time the model 3 has no competing vehicles (premium sedan, 250 mile range, 40K price) as all other similar range/price vehicles are economy hatchbacks.
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