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GoGoGadgetMachE

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Nice to see someone else is honest with numbers.

One big issue I see is that (well, coming from a Tesla forum so take that for what it is) EV owners also tend to be the types that would take stealership servicing hook, line and sinker. That is, they were indeed paying through the nose for "maintenance", but I'd argue that they were really being taken. Stories of paying a dealer $150 for an oil change (that you can do for like $20 with very good parts), or those omnibus services that include a lot of spurious things like "check this...." "inspect that...." "change blinker fluid" and maybe an oil change or tire rotation but charge like $1k. I've owned many cars and never done any of that, and honestly I have yet to have a car that I would consider to have had extraneous repairs - brakes, oil, filters, plugs, etc are all somewhat expected, all DIY, and none particularly expensive.
defending myself a bit, I've never paid anywhere near $150 for scheduled maintenance, literally ever, and the maintenance intervals on modern cars are such that it's not like I'm doing it every 3,000 or even every 5,000 miles.

does going to the dealer cost more than Johnny's Five Minute Magic Oil Change? yes, in theory, but if you go to a place like that, you know the sales push there is as bad as a dealer finance manager's office, because they make nothing on the basic oil change. ("You want the Sparkly Oil with Super Sekret Additive and the Nitrogen Storage Service (tm) or you will die a FIERY DEATH!")

and yes, I could in theory do an oil change myself. But I don't want to. I could do a tire rotation myself. I don't want to. Such things bring me no personal enjoyment or sense of satisfaction - it's a chore. I can pay the dealer $49.95 and have them do all the maintenance while I screw around on my phone or do work on my laptop? SOLD!

of course this is a very person-to-person thing. Just want to make it clear that it's not anywhere near as simple as "you had your dealer do maintenance? YOU'RE DUMB!" :)

edit: by the way this is part of the "dealers have a place" argument, for what it's worth (which is little, admittedly)
 

dbsb3233

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and yes, I could in theory do an oil change myself. But I don't want to. I could do a tire rotation myself. I don't want to. Such things bring me no personal enjoyment or sense of satisfaction - it's a chore. I can pay the dealer $49.95 and have them do all the maintenance while I screw around on my phone or do work on my laptop? SOLD!

of course this is a very person-to-person thing. Just want to make it clear that it's not anywhere near as simple as "you had your dealer do maintenance? YOU'RE DUMB!" :)
Exactly. When I was in my 20's (with far less money), I'd do my own oil changes. Even tire rotations if they needed it. I still have the tools to do it if I wanted, but I'm well past that stage now. It's pretty cheap just to take it to Grease Monkey or one of those. Also, those services have forced dealerships to be more competitive with oil/lube/checkpoint services. I think it's $59.99 (minus $10 coupon) at my dealer, so I often just go there since they're close by.

And when I bother with tire rotations, it's usually at Costco or Sams Club where I usually get new tires.
 

jhalkias

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8 cents a mile, so over 100k miles, $8000? That's absurd. My last car over 200k I probably didn't spend half of that, even including services that an EV would also have (like tires). This makes me wonder what your point of reference is - do you use the dealer's service schedule like gospel and take it there for service? Even if you did I can't see you spending $8,000 in 100k on "service".

Realistically what are the major things you'd go through in 100k? Couple-3 sets of tires, probably 10 oil changes - maybe the plugs are due - perhaps a coolant F&F - what else? Air filters? I can't see how all that adds up to $8000 (and the EV will need tires, too, and it also has a coolant system)
I have 163,000 miles on my Escape. At about 105,000, the engine light came on, and it needed a new waste valve for the turbo. I think that was about $800 . . . a few months later, the Turbo needed replaced, and that was about another $2,500. Major things can happen that are not DIY - at least not for me.
 

jhalkias

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defending myself a bit, I've never paid anywhere near $150 for scheduled maintenance, literally ever, and the maintenance intervals on modern cars are such that it's not like I'm doing it every 3,000 or even every 5,000 miles.

does going to the dealer cost more than Johnny's Five Minute Magic Oil Change? yes, in theory, but if you go to a place like that, you know the sales push there is as bad as a dealer finance manager's office, because they make nothing on the basic oil change. ("You want the Sparkly Oil with Super Sekret Additive and the Nitrogen Storage Service (tm) or you will die a FIERY DEATH!")

and yes, I could in theory do an oil change myself. But I don't want to. I could do a tire rotation myself. I don't want to. Such things bring me no personal enjoyment or sense of satisfaction - it's a chore. I can pay the dealer $49.95 and have them do all the maintenance while I screw around on my phone or do work on my laptop? SOLD!

of course this is a very person-to-person thing. Just want to make it clear that it's not anywhere near as simple as "you had your dealer do maintenance? YOU'RE DUMB!" :)

edit: by the way this is part of the "dealers have a place" argument, for what it's worth (which is little, admittedly)
I just had the oil changed on our Fusion Energi for the first time a couple of weeks ago . . . at the dealer's quick lube while I sat in the car. I heard a LOT of swearing as they were messing with the protective shield that is under the car, and how to get it off, remove the clips, and put it back on. NOT something I would want to do myself. No more are some of those things easily and readily accessible.
 

GoGoGadgetMachE

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I just had the oil changed on our Fusion Energi for the first time a couple of weeks ago . . . at the dealer's quick lube while I sat in the car. I heard a LOT of swearing as they were messing with the protective shield that is under the car, and how to get it off, remove the clips, and put it back on. NOT something I would want to do myself. No more are some of those things easily and readily accessible.
wow they don't let me sit in the car. I did that a couple of times at BillyBob's FastOil Express or whatever in my '95 Mustang GT and yeah each time was like "wait what exactly are they doing under there?"

also that's why I know what the experience at such places is like ;)
 

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I would never, ever let anyone else do an oil change. Way too many stories of stripped plug bolts, wrong oil, too much oil, too little oil, no oil, etc. I've changed the oil on my truck over 80 times. It's quality time for me.
 

dbsb3233

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I have 163,000 miles on my Escape. At about 105,000, the engine light came on, and it needed a new waste valve for the turbo. I think that was about $800 . . . a few months later, the Turbo needed replaced, and that was about another $2,500. Major things can happen that are not DIY - at least not for me.
Yeah, it depends a lot on how long one keeps their vehicles. A decent vehicle (that isn't a cheapo) usually avoids major maintenance problems for the first 60k-80k miles. The Escapes we've owned (4 now) didn't need anything major before 100k. But then the risk of a $3000 repair rises. Hit & miss at that point.
 

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wow they don't let me sit in the car. I did that a couple of times at BillyBob's FastOil Express or whatever in my '95 Mustang GT and yeah each time was like "wait what exactly are they doing under there?"

also that's why I know what the experience at such places is like ;)
They even have a CAMERA with a screen that you can watch the guy struggle with the shield under your car! It is just like the other quick lube places at this dealer.

I was at one time changing the oil at a quick lube place near work, until the guy started telling me to ignore the car telling me when to change the oil, and instead come in every 3,000 miles. I asked him if he knew more than the Ford Engineers that built the car, and that was the end of that relationship.
 

GoGoGadgetMachE

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They even have a CAMERA with a screen that you can watch the guy struggle with the shield under your car! It is just like the other quick lube places at this dealer.

I was at one time changing the oil at a quick lube place near work, until the guy started telling me to ignore the car telling me when to change the oil, and instead come in every 3,000 miles. I asked him if he knew more than the Ford Engineers that built the car, and that was the end of that relationship.
yeah my dealer puts the little sticker on after and I just pull it off. there's an oil life indicator in the car. I see no reason to not pay attention to it.
 

Jim Glass

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8 cents a mile, so over 100k miles, $8000? That's absurd. My last car over 200k I probably didn't spend half of that, even including services that an EV would also have (like tires). This makes me wonder what your point of reference is - do you use the dealer's service schedule like gospel and take it there for service? Even if you did I can't see you spending $8,000 in 100k on "service".

Realistically what are the major things you'd go through in 100k? Couple-3 sets of tires, probably 10 oil changes - maybe the plugs are due - perhaps a coolant F&F - what else? Air filters? I can't see how all that adds up to $8000 (and the EV will need tires, too, and it also has a coolant system)
Obviously, you've never owned a Benz, BMW, Audi or Porsche!
 
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Sigh. I'm so sorry that I am going so off topic, but the guy called me out.

So, how about some convictions. From Washington Post.



More recent, 2019


I mean, come on!
Oil industry rocked by global corruption scandals
https://www.thestar.com/business/2018/02/02/oil-industry-rocked-by-global-corruption-scandals.html

The convictions and settlements would fill a big book. Simply Google "corrupt oil and gasoline companies" and have popcorn ready while you read. And your blood pressure pills.:)
Volkswagen scandal.

Tesla stock price manipulation scandal.

I don't think you could show me an industry that hasn't had somebody convicted of something.

But, I don't think that's what the original poster (and perhaps it was you) meant by "stick it to the oil companies". I don't think they were complaining about instances of price fixing. I think it was a complaint about what they do in general.

You highlighted "4 billion dollars worth of oil" as if that's an enormous amount. It's not.
 

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It's inherent with electric motors. Was sort of a bonus that just came with EVs.

It is something Tesla has pounced on as a selling point, and I can't blame them for exploiting it. I would too. Although I do find the Tesla fanboys' constant bragging about how "ludacrous" their acceleration is rather annoying. As if we should all be peeling out from stoplights on a frequent basis. It is pretty drastic overkill.
That's true.

But if you have two identical cars, except that one accelerates faster than the other, then the faster car is objectively more valuable.
 

dbsb3233

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That's true.

But if you have two identical cars, except that one accelerates faster than the other, then the faster car is objectively more valuable.
For that particular feature, yep. More power is nearly always better than less. Although there's always some expense to it, like more weight, and/or worse mileage, and/or higher price tag. It's just one of many bricks in the wall that make up a vehicle's value.

That's why it's hard to compare the value of something like a Mach-E to a Model Y. While similar in many ways, there's still a ton of differences, many subjective.
 

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For that particular feature, yep. More power is nearly always better than less. Although there's always some expense to it, like more weight, and/or worse mileage, and/or higher price tag. It's just one of many bricks in the wall that make up a vehicle's value.

That's why it's hard to compare the value of something like a Mach-E to a Model Y. While similar in many ways, there's still a ton of differences, many subjective.
Agreed. That's why it's impossible to calculate payback for EVs in general.

You can compare payback of a specific EV vs a specific ICE.
 

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Nice to see someone else is honest with numbers.

One big issue I see is that (well, coming from a Tesla forum so take that for what it is) EV owners also tend to be the types that would take stealership servicing hook, line and sinker. That is, they were indeed paying through the nose for "maintenance", but I'd argue that they were really being taken. Stories of paying a dealer $150 for an oil change (that you can do for like $20 with very good parts), or those omnibus services that include a lot of spurious things like "check this...." "inspect that...." "change blinker fluid" and maybe an oil change or tire rotation but charge like $1k. I've owned many cars and never done any of that, and honestly I have yet to have a car that I would consider to have had extraneous repairs - brakes, oil, filters, plugs, etc are all somewhat expected, all DIY, and none particularly expensive.
As part of the model of hard-core Tesla fans trying to justify the costs of their new EV, I'm inclined to believe those numbers are heavily biased and exaggerated by them, to make the calculation look better.
Paying $150 for an oil change -- sure, if it takes 9 quarts of full synthetic and you do it at the BMW dealership...

As others have mentioned, the price of this car is not justified by the nature of its low maintenance and cheaper fueling costs alone. EVs aren't quite there yet. There are intangibles - appearance, technology, convenience, cool factor, that are part of why we want to own it. Additionally, I'd like to believe resale value on ICE cars will be going down faster than today's BEVs over the next 5 years, as we transition to electric.

That all being said... this car IS going to save a little bit on fuel and maintenance, and over 10 years, I'd expect to save close to $10,000 on fuel and maintenance savings compared to a comparably sized ICE SUV. Maybe more, depending on miles driven.
 



 









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