The GT never had a 5 second limit

[Mach1E]

I think you're missing a whole lot of stuff in your OP.

If you cruise along at higher speeds you'll have some jail bars. We've always known this. But it's just a handful of them, not 10, 15 or whatever, it's closer to 3-4.

When you go under those per-determined speeds the jail bars immediately fall off. This would indicate 100%, that those jail bars are speed based. Again however, that's just a couple of them.

If you accelerate full throttle for 5 seconds you get a crap ton of jail bars. Surely some of them are from the speed thresholds, but the rest are from the 5 second limit. This is also proven in that the ones from the 5 second limit will NOT drop off once you go under those per-determined speeds until things cool down. While you can't see my speed in this video, you can hear the rumble strip and you can tell that I still have jail bars well under 50mph.

So, in summary, yes there's a 5 second limit and yes there's per-determined jail bars at various speeds, what we see when we accelerate 0-80mph is a combination of them both. Not to mention there's jail bars for low SOC, cold weather and probably a few other things.


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^^^^.............5 Second limiting
.............^^.......Speed limiting

I definitely didn’t fill in all the details (didn’t want to write a full book, that’s what the discussion would be for).

But yup, you helped cover some of the other details for sure.

The amount of jail bars for sure comes from the other factors including-

Speed- 72 mph
State of charge
Battery temp
External temp

And by far the BIGGEST limiter- discharge rate over time.

The more power you use in a shorter time period, the more jail bars you get.

But to the entire point of the thread- none of these are some 5 second timer counting down.

This is both confusing and different. Because our competitors (Kia, Hyundai for example) use a 10 second timer.

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[Mach1E]

power limiting is not a simple 5-second rule.... nor is it a simple 72 mph rule.

Power limiting occurs in all trim levels, but is easier to see in the GT with visible bars. I've verified power limiting in my select by watching the actual power output on my custom Carscanner 'dashboard' which is reading ODB2 data on the fly.

The power limiting is programmatic, with lots of variables, and has never been fully disclosed or explained by any official statement from @Ford Motor Company Engineering. It would be nice to know exactly how it works, but there is no way to avoid it.

Through much group discussion, testing, and conjecture.... the 'group think' conclusions I have reached are:

- power is limited programmatically to prevent thermal damage and reduced life of batteries and components.... to prevent warranty payout while enabling 0-60mph performance.

- the power limiting formula takes into consideration ambient temps, energy output over some 'trailing time period', and probably adjusts with *available* temp sensors that are near components that may be prone to damage. i.e. output of xx kW for yy seconds is calculated to require aa seconds of 'recovery' at reduced output of bb kW. For example.... full output at 200kW for about 5 seconds puts the clamp on to reduce output to some output that is calculated to be maximum continuous output/input without thermal runaway. my observations indicate somewhere between 100-150kW where the existing cooling system can keep up. This applies to output, regen, and charging most likely.

- once output drops below 100kw or so.... for some trailing period of time, calculated temps drop and power above 100kw-150kw would be allowed of zz period of time before clamps come down again.

- rolling on flat highway at 65mph requires about 20-30 kw power, no limiting
increasing speed to 80-85mph (typical commute on I-25 between Albuquerque and Santa Fe) output climbs towards 50kW climbing an extended hill, and reduces time available for 'full output'.

This 'formula' is not something we can change, and it's unlikely that Ford would change it dramatically and risk drivetrain warranty unless there are physical improvements made to cool key components, and sensors added for temperature feedback rather than programmatic adjustments to output.

Unfortunately, because the limiting appears to be programmatic, and NOT directly affected by any available temp sensors... efforts to improve cooling probably will not result in extending full output time, or speeding the calculated recovery. Our vehicles are a blast to drive, especially 0-60, or in spurts of moderate speed accel/decel as in mountain driving.... but I don't think there are any modifications we can make (without voiding warranty) to make stock vehicles perform better on the drag strip or autoX track.

To be clear, there is a 72 mph rule. There is no 5 second rule.

But 72 mph is just one of many limits.

It just happens to be the only “hard limit” that we know of. Everything else is a sliding scale likely based on various inputs and tables/charts in the programming.

I would bet if we could see the code and adjust the programming- the number 72 would show up as a value that could be modified. Similar to a speed limiter or rev limiter in an ICE vehicle.

 

[DevSecOps]

To be clear, there is a 72 mph rule. There is no 5 second rule.

Hard disagree... There's a lot of rules, but 5 seconds is definitely one of them. You can get jail bars by a number of things as we all seem to agree on, but a full throttle event for 5 seconds gives you a lot of jail bars. There's no denying that. The GT has been around for 2.5 years now and we've all seen this happen. That doesn't mean there's no speed determined jail bars in addition.

 

[helium89]

This is a really strange post. Jail bars, gray bars... the longer & harder you put your foot down, the more quickly they show up. There's absolutely a limiter in the vehicle to protect the HVBJB. Thousands of posts on here confirm it-- as well as my experience at the track-- they are not wrong.

Given how long it took for Ford to figure out that failing junction boxes were a widespread problem, it seems unlikely that any limits on GTs were put in place specifically to protect them. The way the limits are implemented does seem pretty ham fisted and points to a poorly thought out thermal management strategy, but I don’t think Ford would have spent a year and a half shipping bad junction boxes if they were aware enough to throttle power to protect them. The recall, replacement costs, and bad PR have really set back Ford’s efforts to show that their corporate culture isn’t going to stop them from successfully pivoting to EVs.

 

[HuntingPudel]

5 seconds is approximately how long it takes to get to the point where the full force of the jail bars slaps you in the face from a standstill. There are a ton of factors that go into the appearance of a single jail bar, the most obvious and easiest to determine of which is speed. A single jail bar does not equal 40-ish% of the power meter. We don’t really feel the single jail bar in the seat of our pants, so we don’t much talk about it. There are 5 or so bars at 75, so we’re starting to feel them there. At 80? Full force, slap you in the face jail bars, so that’s what people talk about. Human nature. ?‍?

 

[zvez]

5 seconds is approximately how long it takes to get to the point where the full force of the jail bars slaps you in the face from a standstill. There are a ton of factors that go into the appearance of a single jail bar, the most obvious and easiest to determine of which is speed. A single jail bar does not equal 40-ish% of the power meter. We don’t really feel the single jail bar in the seat of our pants, so we don’t much talk about it. There are 5 or so bars at 75, so we’re starting to feel them there. At 80? Full force, slap you in the face jail bars, so that’s what people talk about. Human nature. ?‍?

So I'm confused by the jailbar term, I recently traded my 21 rwd premium for 23 gtpe, in unbridaled mode I have those jailbars display to varying degrees, depending on speed, do they do something different if I go WOT?

 

[Mach1E]

Hard disagree... There's a lot of rules, but 5 seconds is definitely one of them. You can get jail bars by a number of things as we all seem to agree on, but a full throttle event for 5 seconds gives you a lot of jail bars. There's no denying that. The GT has been around for 2.5 years now and we've all seen this happen. That doesn't mean there's no speed determined jail bars in addition.

This is exactly why I made this thread.

Hard disagree. “5 seconds” is something we made up.

There is no 5 second timer.

Proof-
Floor it at 0 mph, bars show up at 72 mph. (Takes less than 5 seconds)

3/4 throttle from 0- bars show up at 72 mph (takes more than 5 seconds)

Floor it from any speed less than 72 mph (varying time, less than 5 seconds) bars show up at 72 mph.

Summary- we have NEVER gotten 5 full seconds of full power, and it’s almost always significantly less than 5 seconds.

It is not based on a 5 second timer. We do agree it’s LOTS of variables. But none of them are a 5 second timer.

5 seconds is just something we made up to describe one of the things that’s happening from a full throttle event from a stop because that’s “about how long it takes to hit 72 mph.”

But again, a 5 second timer is not really an accurate description of our power limit. And clearly calling it that creates confusion.

 

[Mach1E]

So I'm confused by the jailbar term, I recently traded my 21 rwd premium for 23 gtpe, in unbridaled mode I have those jailbars display to varying degrees, depending on speed, do they do something different if I go WOT?

Yup, you get more of them.

The power restriction starts with 1 gray bar. But if you floor it a lot (Or it’s hot or cold or low charge or high speed) you get more and more.

They’re just a visual representation of how much power is being restricted.

 

[DevSecOps]

This is exactly why I made this thread.

Hard disagree. “5 seconds” is something we made up.

There is no 5 second timer.

Proof-
Floor it at 0 mph, bars show up at 72 mph. (Takes less than 5 seconds)

3/4 throttle from 0- bars show up at 72 mph (takes more than 5 seconds)

Floor it from any speed less than 72 mph (varying time, less than 5 seconds) bars show up at 72 mph.

Sigh ... I don't know what part of this is going over your head. We agree that there's speed related jail bars.

Here's the counter proof -

If you go 72 you get bars
If you go 71, they go away

If you floor it 0-72, you get lots of bars
If you drop 72-71, you still have lots of bars, just a couple fewer

Those extra bars are due to the 5 second rule.

 

[Mach1E]

Sigh ... I don't know what part of this is going over your head. We agree that there's speed related jail bars.

Here's the counter proof -

If you go 72 you get bars
If you go 71, they go away

If you floor it 0-72, you get lots of bars
If you drop 72-71, you still have lots of bars, just a couple fewer

Those extra bars are due to the 5 second rule.

It’s not going over my head at all.

You’re proving my point with everything you said except your last sentence.

There is no “5 second rule.”

There is some unknown table with likely multiple factor inputs that equal how much of a power reduction based on “discharge over time.” You see this from the amount of gray bars.

But none of those are some firm “5 second timer.”

Calling it a 5 second rule is both incorrect and confusing.

In your example above, go 71 mph and floor it. How much time of full power do you get?

Answer- zero seconds. And you would describe that as the “5 second rule?”

In fact, I am arguing there is only 1 “rule” we know about with the limit- and that’s the 72 mph “rule.” It’s a hard fast number that never changes.

How can you call something the “5 second rule” if you NEVER get 5 seconds and it’s always changing?

The whole concept of a “rule” would be that it doesn’t change.

 

[DevSecOps]

It’s not going over my head at all.

You’re proving my point with everything you said except your last sentence.

There is no “5 second rule.”

There is some unknown table with likely multiple factor inputs that equal how much of a power reduction based on “discharge over time.” You see this from the amount of gray bars.

But none of those are some firm “5 second timer.”

Calling it a 5 second rule is both incorrect and confusing.

In your example above, go 71 mph and floor it. How much time of full power do you get?

Answer- zero seconds. And you would describe that as the “5 second rule?”

In fact, I am arguing there is only 1 “rule” we know about with the limit- and that’s the 72 mph “rule.” It’s a hard fast number that never changes.

How can you call something the “5 second rule” if you NEVER get 5 seconds and it’s always changing?

The whole concept of a “rule” would be that it doesn’t change.

I think everyone understands that the 5 second rule, which definitely, 1000000%, does exist, is during a full throttle event from 0-(insert mph here).

I don't think anyone has ever assumed it was 5 seconds starting from 50mph or 60 mph or 70mph.

When we look at 1/4 mile traps we start from 0 that's where all this stems from. We know, and we hate the fact that the MME GTPE has crap power above 70/80mph because of all the speed limited bars, throw in low SOC and some cold weather and we can get smoked by a Ford Pinto.

 

[Mach1E]

I think everyone understands that the 5 second rule, which definitely, 1000000%, does exist, is during a full throttle event from 0-(insert mph here).

I don't think anyone has ever assumed it was 5 seconds starting from 50mph or 60 mph or 70mph.

When we look at 1/4 mile traps we start from 0 that's where all this stems from. We know, and we hate the fact that the MME GTPE has crap power above 70/80mph because of all the speed limited bars, throw in low SOC and some cold weather and we can get smoked by a Ford Pinto.

Probably semantics at this point, but that’s kinda the point of this thread.

Sure, people who have been around the forum for years and own a GT understand that you only get about 5 seconds of full power from a stop.

The point of clarification is that the reason this is the case has absolutely NOTHING to do with the time elapsed.

Its because of:
1. the 72 mph rule (which lots of people don’t understand)
2. The state of charge, battery temp and external temp (that few understand)
And
3. The discharge rate over time tables (which no one understands).

And none of those are a 5 second timer.

 

[DevSecOps]

Its because of:
1. the 72 mph rule (which lots of people don’t understand)
2. The state of charge, battery temp and external temp (that few understand)
And
3. The discharge rate over time tables (which no one understands).

And none of those are a 5 second timer.

First of all it's not just 72mph ... if you want to educate people it gets worse and we get more bars as you continue to go up in mph. So using 72mph as "the" number isn't correct.

As for your last line, that's just not true. There's 5 seconds before we get limited from a standstill full acceleration event. It's never 3, it's never 7, it's always 5. I just don't know why you can't accept that it exists.

As for why we get limited at 5 seconds, I have no f'ing clue. It could be a timer, it could be thermal limiting that just happens to always take place at 5 seconds it could be a measurement of power. I don't think it really matters why it's 5 seconds, but it's 5 seconds.

 

[Mach1E]

First of all it's not just 72mph ... if you want to educate people it gets worse and we get more bars as you continue to go up in mph. So using 72mph as "the" number isn't correct.

As for your last line, that's just not true. There's 5 seconds before we get limited from a standstill full acceleration event. It's never 3, it's never 7, it's always 5. I just don't know why you can't accept that it exists.

As for why we get limited at 5 seconds, I have no f'ing clue. It could be a timer, it could be thermal limiting that just happens to always take place at 5 seconds it could be a measurement of power. I don't think it really matters why it's 5 seconds, but it's 5 seconds.

Never said it was “just 72 mph.” I said it was 1, 2, AND 3.

But as far as “rules” go, 72 mph is a rule.

And again, it’s never 5 seconds, it’s always less than 5. But 5 seconds isn’t the rule, it’s just a description of what can sometimes happen…. Because of rules 1, 2 and 3.

Another way to look at it:
5 seconds is sometimes the “what,” but the rules are the “why.”

My car did 0-60 in 10 seconds (what).

My car was at 10% charge, -20 degrees outside, and I just did 5 back to back 0-60 (why).

My car got 5 seconds of full power (what).

My car was full charge, battery warm, started from zero mph and lost power at 72 mph (why).

The (why) is the rule.

 

[DevSecOps]

Never said it was “just 72 mph.” I said it was 1, 2, AND 3.

But as far as “rules” go, 72 mph is a rule.

And again, it’s never 5 seconds, it’s always less than 5. But 5 seconds isn’t the rule, it’s just a description of what can sometimes happen…. Because of rules 1, 2 and 3.

Another way to look at it:
5 seconds is sometimes the “what,” but the rules are the “why.”

My car did 0-60 in 10 seconds (what).

My car was at 10% charge, -20 degrees outside, and I just did 5 back to back 0-60 (why).

My car got 5 seconds of full power (what).

My car was full charge, battery warm, started from zero mph and lost power at 72 mph (why).

The (why) is the rule.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself anymore. Your analogies are not at all relative to what I'm saying. So, either I'm not explaining myself well enough or you just aren't wanting to accept it.

I think many here understand what I'm saying... If you don't then here's plenty of people who have tested the car that say exactly the same thing.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38331536/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-gt-performance-tested/
https://www.motor1.com/news/541029/ford-mache-gt-performance-time/
https://insideevs.com/news/601920/ford-mustang-mache-gt-power-limit/
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/track-tested-2022-ford-mustang-mach-e-gt.html
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-y-rival-ford-mustang-mach-e-5-sec-limit-ice-promotion/
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...s-only-5-seconds-of-maximum-power-174410.html

No one has ever disputed that there's mph marks where the car is limited. 80mph is another one where more bars are added, but that's not at all relevant to the hard 0-(insert mph here) limiting by the vehicle. It's in combination with it. Notice how I'm not disagreeing with the 72 mph??? You're saying things that are well known for years now, but for some reason (and as a long time forum member) you just woke up thinking that everyone on the planet is wrong.

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