The GT never had a 5 second limit

[Mach1E]

I'm not going to keep repeating myself anymore. Your analogies are not at all relative to what I'm saying. So, either I'm not explaining myself well enough or you just aren't wanting to accept it.

I think many of here understand what I'm saying... If you don't then here's plenty of people who have tested the car that say exactly the same thing.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a38331536/2021-ford-mustang-mach-e-gt-performance-tested/
https://www.motor1.com/news/541029/ford-mache-gt-performance-time/
https://insideevs.com/news/601920/ford-mustang-mache-gt-power-limit/
https://www.edmunds.com/car-news/track-tested-2022-ford-mustang-mach-e-gt.html
https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-y-rival-ford-mustang-mach-e-5-sec-limit-ice-promotion/
https://www.autoevolution.com/news/...s-only-5-seconds-of-maximum-power-174410.html

No one has ever disputed that there's mph marks where the car is limited. 80mph is another one where more bars are added, but that's not at all relevant to the hard 0-(insert mph here) limiting by the vehicle. It's in combination with it.

Not sure they all agree with you.

CarAndDriver- “We noticed that the GT Performance started to severely limit power after about 80 mph.” No mention of a time based limit.

Motor1 source “people on the forum speculate…..” ? Need I say more?

Insideevs- no mention of a time limit, they actually measure the voltage of what’s happening, but don’t know why.


I dunno, at this point if you don’t understand what I’m saying about the “what” vs the “why,” it feels like we are just talking past each other.

We both agree there are multiple limiting factors.

We both agree power gets limited after about 5 seconds from a dig.

Where we disagree? You call the latter a “rule,” while I say it’s just a possible description of what can happen because of the rules.


Another analogy since you didn’t like those?

You are talking about SYMPTOMS, I am talking about the DISEASE.

5 seconds is a symptom, but not the cause. The cause is the disease is the rule.

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[HuntingPudel]

My car woke up this morning with a zero second limit after L2 charging to 85%:

These are the quantity of bars you see after going WOT (note that I did not go WOT this morning and the bars were present at 15 mph). The 72 mph singular bar is speed triggered (with more bars appearing as speed increases, and bars disappearing as speed decreases). The WOT bars are different all together. There are several things going on here that affect the bars on the display. Mine currently are not related to speed or power over time, but I have no DTCs. Gonna pull the 12V power after I get home from work if a key cycle doesn’t clear this (TCU doesn’t seem to be talking to Ford since yesterday morning). ?‍?

A key cycle or maybe time did it. I remote started just before leaving work and got deluged with notifications from the FordPass app, plus no more jail bars. No clue why the car was constipated. ?‍?

 

[Mach1E]

A key cycle or maybe time did it. I remote started just before leaving work and got deluged with notifications from the FordPass app, plus no more jail bars. No clue why the car was constipated. ?‍?

I’m convinced remote start breaks things.

The biggest multiple faults and bugs I’ve had all happened after remote start.


In terms of this “why do I care what we call it,” it’s because I think if we are focused on the wrong thing, we are sending the wrong message to Ford about what we want.

If we focus on the “cough”, we can’t fix the “cold.”

So many people have said things like “I want 8 seconds.” But it’s really not that.

What they mean is they want to get full power no matter what speed they floor it up to about 100 mph. People who want “12 seconds? About 113 mph.

But what I want is much more than that-

I want the discharge over time restrictions changed significantly. I don’t want to lose 150-200 hp after full throttle limits kick in. I want more power available at cold temps and lower battery SOC.

Those things are the “germs.” Yeah, as a result, It’ll get rid of the “cough.”

 

[DevSecOps]

Not sure they all agree with you.

CarAndDriver- “We noticed that the GT Performance started to severely limit power after about 80 mph.” No mention of a time based limit.

Motor1 source “people on the forum speculate…..” ? Need I say more?

Insideevs- no mention of a time limit, they actually measure the voltage of what’s happening, but don’t know why.


I dunno, at this point if you don’t understand what I’m saying about the “what” vs the “why,” it feels like we are just talking past each other.

We both agree there are multiple limiting factors.

We both agree power gets limited after about 5 seconds from a dig.

Where we disagree? You call the latter a “rule,” while I say it’s just a possible description of what can happen because of the rules.


Another analogy since you didn’t like those?

You are talking about SYMPTOMS, I am talking about the DISEASE.

5 seconds is a symptom, but not the cause. The cause is the disease is the rule.

You're still picking and choosing whatever you think fits your narrative. They flat our say, "The way Ford explained it, it gives full power for about 5 seconds then it ramps back the battery power to limit heating. It's done for long-term battery life in order for Ford to guarantee 70-plus percent battery life for 8 years." Straight from Ford.

If Ford flat out told the media that it's 5 seconds then it's a rule.

Your symptom vs disease statement is what I said, but you disagreed with, and now you're agreeing with? I can't win...

As for why we get limited at 5 seconds, I have no f'ing clue. It could be a timer, it could be thermal limiting that just happens to always take place at 5 seconds it could be a measurement of power. I don't think it really matters why it's 5 seconds, but it's 5 seconds.

Either way, it's 5 seconds. If 5 seconds gets you to 80 like car and driver said, ok so? It's still 5 seconds. If it gets you to 60, it's 5 seconds, so? 80 will give you more jail bars because you get them added on for speed. None of that has anything to do with the fact that there's a five second limitation on power.

 

[Mach1E]

You're still picking and choosing whatever you think fits your narrative. They flat our say, "The way Ford explained it, it gives full power for about 5 seconds then it ramps back the battery power to limit heating. It's done for long-term battery life in order for Ford to guarantee 70-plus percent battery life for 8 years." Straight from Ford.

If Ford flat out told the media that it's 5 seconds then it's a rule.

Your symptom vs disease statement is what I said, but you disagreed with, and now you're agreeing with? I can't win...



Either way, it's 5 seconds. If 5 seconds gets you to 80 like car and driver said, ok so? It's still 5 seconds. If it gets you to 60, it's 5 seconds, so? 80 will give you more jail bars because you get them added on for speed. None of that has anything to do with the fact that there's a five second limitation on power.

That’s the thing, 5 seconds doesn’t get you to 80, it gets you to 72 mph. That’s the actual limit.

If you put the car in jack stands and floored it, you’ll hit 72 mph in maybe 1 second….. and the power limit would kick in right then.
Maybe I’m being too nitpicky, but I’m just trying to define the limits more accurately.

“I can get full power for 5 seconds.” sometimes true

“I can’t get full power above 72 mph.” Always true

I just don’t think I could call something that’s only sometimes true a rule.

I’ve been saying all along that we agree on most of what you’re saying.

 

[DevSecOps]

“I can get full power for 5 seconds.” sometimes true

Yes, because if you go 5 seconds full balls to the wall and then slow down you are still limited. If you slowly crawl to 72/80, whatever the magic number is for additional jail bars, as soon as you get under that mark, they go away. They are two totally different things. You are conflating the two. There's speed limited bars and there's performance limited bars. They aren't the same. Lastly, 5 seconds isn't always going to be 72mph. If you have a car full of "My 600lb Life" participants you're not getting to 72mph in 5 seconds, but I bet you 100% that you'll have jail bars.

 

[Mach1E]

Yes, because if you go 5 seconds full balls to the wall and then slow down you are still limited. If you slowly crawl to 72/80, whatever the magic number is for additional jail bars, as soon as you get under that mark, they go away. They are two totally different things. You are conflating the two. There's speed limited bars and there's performance limited bars. They aren't the same. Lastly, 5 seconds isn't always going to be 72mph. If you have a car full of "My 600lb Life" participants you're not getting to 72mph in 5 seconds, but I bet you 100% that you'll have jail bars.

This is all true.

But I would say it’s because of the #3 reason I listed before (discharge rate over time). I’m not confusing it with the #1 reason (72 mph). They layer on top of each other…… along with temp, state of charge etc. It isn’t either or, it’s both.

I believe that that limit looks like an excel spreadsheet and limits based on multiple factors (time and discharge rate) and reduces power accordingly. But it’s not as simple as just time (5 seconds). I did a lot of tuning on previous cars and they looooove their spreadsheets (for fuel trims, knock retard, timing


Someone could also prove me right (or wrong) by doing significant weight reduction. If the same limit kicks in at 72 mph like I’m assuming, then there is no “5 sec timer.” If they somehow hit 100 mph in 5 seconds with less power reduction, then I would be wrong and there is some sort of timer (that layers On top of the 72 mph limit).

Unfortunately it would look like this Tesla plaid I saw at the drag strip last week:

 

[azerik]

And none of those are a “5 second timer.”

We just call it that because that’s about how long it takes to hit 72 mph from a stop.

But calling it a “5 second limit” is both confusing and inaccurate.

Great so Ford saying they’ll increase the 5 second limit is already done lol.

 

[Mach1E]

Great so Ford saying they’ll increase the 5 second limit is already done lol.

They didn’t say that.

They said “we will change the limit.”

They never called it a “5 second limit.” He spoke generically about the “power limit.”

Just goes back to my theory that we made up the “5 second limit” terminology here.

 

[Mach1E]

Lastly, 5 seconds isn't always going to be 72mph. If you have a car full of "My 600lb Life" participants you're not getting to 72mph in 5 seconds, but I bet you 100% that you'll have jail bars.

I want to circle back to this point, because it would also be a way to prove me right or wrong (not volunteering).

If like you say, you add a ton of weight, enough so that it takes longer than 5 seconds to hit 72 mph……. Would grey bars show up at exactly 5 seconds (let’s say at 55 mph)?

I honestly don’t know. I’m assuming no, but you would say yes.

Would be an interesting test.

Hopefully soon none of this matters if they change the power limits.

This wouldn’t even be a debate if it wasn’t so complicated.

Porsche, Kia, Hyundai- very straightforward. boost mode for X seconds with Y horsepower, otherwise hp = Z.

Ford- horsepower equals 1 = cos2 (x) + sin2 (x) = (eix + e-ix )2 /4 + sin2(x) = (e2ix + e-2ix )/4 + e2ln(sin(x)) + 1/2

 

[ThatGuyLando]

This should be very easy to test, just use an ODB scanner and a monitoring app. Don't expect much info from Ford other than all the great things their marketing team can come up with.

Or you know, you can just take the word of the VP of EV's over at Ford:

Palmer responded: "We do throttle after a certain period of time, um, the power to the wheels, so that's something we can control over the air and we are going to change that limit. We've done that on testing to make sure the vehicle lasts the way it is expected for the customers..."

 

[Mach1E]

This should be very easy to test, just use an ODB scanner and a monitoring app. Don't expect much info from Ford other than all the great things their marketing team can come up with.

Or you know, you can just take the word of the VP of EV's over at Ford:

Palmer responded: "We do throttle after a certain period of time, um, the power to the wheels, so that's something we can control over the air and we are going to change that limit. We've done that on testing to make sure the vehicle lasts the way it is expected for the customers..."

And they do throttle after a certain period of time (discharge rate over time).

AND

after a certain speed

AnD

at certain temps

AND

at certain states of charge

AND any combination of the above


I wish it was a simple time limit like Kia, Hyundai and Porsche. Or of course no limit like brand T.

 

[ARK]

Someone needs to find a really long and particularly steep hill, floor it and see what happens after 5 seconds (presumably still well-below 72 mph if a steep hill).

 

[DevSecOps]

So, I just took the car out and ran some tests. It's 73 mph that adds 2 bars. I started with 1, went to 3. At 72 mph, after being above 73 mph via a slow climb, I immediately loose the 2 bars extra and go back to 1. This is exactly what I've been saying.

Now if I give it 3/4 throttle from 0-93, I get a f*ck ton of bars. After I drop below 72 mph, they are still present. Which is what I've been saying.

They are two totally different sets of bars. Yes there's bars at 73mph, there's another set of bars at 80mph and there's a whole different set of bars at 5-7 seconds, whatever the magical performance limiter is at. I'm not hard stuck on it being an exact 5 seconds, it's close to that. But it's a time limited run that adds bars.

Start Bars:

76 mph (slow climb) bars:

72 mph (slow climb) bars:

0-(whatever) 3/4 throttle (0-60 in 5 sec):

 

[Mach-Lee]

Pretty sure it's a time based moving average. Something like amps^2 * seconds ≤ limit in a x second period. That video was like ~5.6 seconds before the limit kicked in hard.

What Todd is saying is correct. There's a slight limit that happens purely because of speed. Pretty sure this is indicating the reduced power output of the motors due to back EMF, which increases with motor speed and is just unavoidable physics. Then there is a separate power limit that comes in based off amp draw. Cold battery temps will also introduce their own power limit. And then there are limits related to low state of charge to protect the cells from excessive discharge.

When people talk about the 5 second limit, they are referring to the limit component that's the direct result of drawing a lot of power in a short time. Not the speed/temperature/SoC components, which are separate algorithms. The computer is looking at all the limit algorithms at the same time, and whichever limit component is greatest wins and is followed.

If Ford improves the 5 second power limit, you will still see the couple jail bars at high speed and at cold temps, those won't change. But hopefully the big time jail bars won't come in for a few more seconds at WOT compared to now.

If you do a run at 1/2 throttle, you'll get more seconds before the limit kicks in because the product of amps and seconds isn't as high as full throttle. It's just harder to know the jail bars aren't from speed vs. the amp draw because the speed bars might set faster than the amp draw product bars.

This whole thread is really just a bunch of semantics. People say "5 second rule" when talking about the time/amperage based power limit because it ends up being about 5 seconds at full throttle, hence the name. Not the best name for it, but it's not completely wrong either. Total clickbait thread title BTW. Snopes would rate your claim a 5-second rule doesn't exist as "mostly false."

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