This bothers me...

zhackwyatt

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Ford are warranting the battery pack for 8 years/100,000 miles ( I think) so what you are saying is that if the battery packs fails within that period then Ford wont be able to replace modules or whole pack. What do you expect them to do, give you a new car?
No I wasn't trying to say that at all. If a module failed, they would replace that one module. If a battery back failed, they would replace the pack. We know the pack is very serviceable.

What I doubt they will ever do, is offer an officially supported upgraded pack down the line in some kind of aftermarket environment. I know the FFE had upgraded packs installed when it required replacement because they had to out of necessity (supplies) but I believe the differences weren't significant.

I just don't picture a day, where I go to the parts guy, and order a pack upgrade and have it installed.
 

zhackwyatt

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If someone can convert a Volkswagen Beetle into an EV, then they’re not going to have any problems retrofitting a Mach-E with new battery tech and even motors if that’s what you wanted to do. By the time the battery warranty on our MMEs are up, there should be a thriving aftermarket for modding and upgrading EVs... just my opinion, obviously.
Sure. With enough money and willpower you can do anything. I'm just trying to say, I think EV's are going down the route of iPhones.

You can't take a newer iPhone battery and put it into an old one. Third parties make batteries that may be bigger, but Apple doesn't. And violates the warranty if you do. And it's a PITA for the average person to do so.

Everything is getting more integrated and interconnected, more streamlined, and less serviceable.
 

silverelan

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To my knowledge that has never happened before in ICE cars either. You could put a faster engine in yourself if you wanted to, but when did they ever say years after a car is released: "We have this special program that lets you drop in an upgraded engine"?

What I doubt they will ever do, is offer an officially supported upgraded pack down the line in some kind of aftermarket environment. I know the FFE had upgraded packs installed when it required replacement because they had to out of necessity (supplies) but I believe the differences weren't significant.

I just don't picture a day, where I go to the parts guy, and order a pack upgrade and have it installed.
You might be right because it's an EV but we need to remember that Ford is very good about upgrading Mustangs.

You can buy a used 2015 Mustang GT and get a factory authorized upgrade that's installed by the dealer to bump power up to 670hp.

It's possible we may see this sort of thing in the Mustang Mach-E.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/part/M-6066-M8627

We already know that Darren Palmer and the Mustang team have said the car will be allowed to be modified and upgraded.
*Edit: Palmer is partially referring to software updates in modules/componentry

11:05 mark
 
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SJ_Okay

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I think EV's are going down the route of iPhones
I really hope you’re wrong. I can see why it would be easier and more commercially viable for manufacturers, but a huge reason a lot of people go EV is environmental. The idea for many of them, myself included, that my car has a sort of planned obsolescence built into it, like with almost all cheap electronics, is unacceptable, really. If we are truly serious about moving away from a world dependant on burning fossil fuels and depleting natural resources, then it’s not only important that they’re upgradable, it’s essential. The only way the world will ever change is if the changes proposed work within our current Zeitgeist... that means EVs absolutely have to have the same upgradability as an ICE... and it’ll likely come from the aftermarket, for customers with expired warranties. 🤞🏼
 

LYTMCQ

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The idea for many of them, myself included, that my car has a sort of planned obsolescence built into it, like with almost all cheap electronics, is unacceptable,
EV with battery expected to go by 8 years/100k miles unfortunately is in that category. But the batteries are recyclable so more a case of mfg with recycling in mind.
 

SJ_Okay

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EV with battery expected to go by 8 years/100k miles unfortunately is in that category. But the batteries are recyclable so more a case of mfg with recycling in mind.
The limitations here is the battery, not the vehicle. So therefore the vehicle must be able to accommodate new battery tech as and when it comes along.
 
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LYTMCQ

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So therefore the vehicle must be able to accommodate new battery tech as and when it comes along.
Too expensive and what do you build in when you are looking 8 years into the future? Building for recycling is the key. Have regs requiring 100% recycle. This also helps with the more expensive battery materials. This is crucial for EV's as they do have built in obsolescence.
 

silverelan

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Too expensive and what do you build in when you are looking 8 years into the future? Building for recycling is the key. Have regs requiring 100% recycle. This also helps with the more expensive battery materials. This is crucial for EV's as they do have built in obsolescence.
GM's Ultium battery ecosystem seems to promise future proofing and backwards compatibility. It's very intriguing.
 

dbsb3233

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GM's Ultium battery ecosystem seems to promise future proofing and backwards compatibility. It's very intriguing.
I'd always be a little skeptical of promised "future-proofing". While no doubt most of the vehicle manufactures think they have platforms + battery packs that can underpin many BEV models for years to come, the future has a knack of delivering the unanticipated.

Probably less a matter of "if" than "when" the current pack designs become obsolete and displaced by something much better.
 

LYTMCQ

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GM's Ultium battery ecosystem seems to promise future proofing and backwards compatibility. It's very intriguing.
All kinds of stuff going on but who knows what will work, what will be scalable, what won't be eight years from now. Idea that you drop tomorrow's tech into today's car isn't practical.. Tesla did it for the old Roadsters but it was $30k. Practical for nostaligic millionaires but on a mass produced basis where you hope a good 500 mile range, fast charging EV costs $30k in 2028, the economics will likely always be receding into the future. That's OK, just grind the old EV up and make a new one out of it.
 

SJ_Okay

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Too expensive and what do you build in when you are looking 8 years into the future? Building for recycling is the key. Have regs requiring 100% recycle. This also helps with the more expensive battery materials. This is crucial for EV's as they do have built in obsolescence.
Again you’re talking about the battery, not the car... what about the car in 8 years time when the original battery it came with is no longer made? Are you saying the car needs to be recycled too? No chance, far far far to wasteful. New batteries will be made to communicate with older cars... there is no way battery manufacturers wouldn’t do this... there will be a HUGE demand for this in the aftermarket and I wouldn’t be surprised if it is legislated! If a new battery can not communicate with a car, how the hell is it going to communicate with chargers? We’ll end up having to rip them all out the ground and waste the billions invested in the infrastructure and start again... and then rip those out the ground when the next iteration comes along! No way that will happen... new battery tech has to be able to work with charging infrastructure which means they will work with older cars.

Also, you can’t possible say it’s too expensive if you have zero idea what the costs will be in the future... you said it yourself in the same sentence, which kind of contradicted your point on it being expensive... what do you build? But it’s a moot point..: You don’t build anything, you just make sure the battery is easily replaced... which ford have done. Battery manufacturers will take care of the rest.
 

ab13

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Previous generations of LG batteries are what are used in Ford Focus electric and GM Volt and Bolt, so the lifecycle degradation can be observed from these products. However, they don't seem to have too much drop in general. Perhaps in 5 to 7 years Ford will have an updated pack for that model year with much greater range, at which point someone could opt to buy the pack as a replacement.

Typical cars models are sold for at least a 5 year cycle (longer for low volume models), so the pack shape should be the same for at least 5 years.
 
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HopefulAl

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Previous generations of LG batteries are what are used in Ford Focus electric and GM Volt and Bolt, so the lifecycle degradation can be observed from these products. However, they don't seem to have too much drop in general. Perhaps in 5 to 7 years Ford will have an updated pack for that model year with much greater range, at which point someone could opt to buy the pack as a replacement.

Typical cars models are sold for at least a 5 year cycle (longer for low volume models), so the pack shape should be the same for at least 5 years.
This topic and similar tech topics eat at me, regarding getting the MME.

https://www.greencarreports.com/new...mile-evs-viable-million-mile-battery-in-sight

We all have seen these reports of new battery tech, Tesla's million mile batteries, faster charging, long battery life, etc, etc. Technology always move ahead, and from computers to phones, waiting for the next great thing is a fools errand, because there is always something new and you/I will never buy anything if that is a concern. However, a phone or a computer is one thing, but a $50K or $60K "investment" is another. I just don't like the idea of buying this car and having it be worth next to nothing in 3 years, when new cars routinely get 400 miles a charge or can charge in 5 minutes, name your tech. I would lease, but I don't see evidence that they are changing their milage requirements, even though they should, since EV's don't age the way ICE vehicles do.

I have never been able to lease, because I drive 22K or more a year. Obviously, at that rate, after 5 years, the value of the car is pretty low anyway due to milage, so maybe if doesn't matter if the MME depreciates. But, it still eats at me.
The good news is that there will always be a used market for EVs. EVs are going to run for a lot of miles...they are simple and don’t need a lot of maint. We are just getting to that point with EVs. I sold my 3 year old EV to a person that did not want to buy a new one. There was a line of prospective buyers. Even as their batteries get to 50% of their original range there will be folks lined up. Think of “older” EVs as the new “old Toyota and Honda” products for used car buyers.

I believe the real issue is the minimum range you want for the useful life (for you). You will only want to charge to 85% of max. Unless you are going on a trip the next morning. This is the only way to protect the battery’s high end change value. (You can google this) Then, you factor how low you are willing to let the remaining range go while on a trip (say 30 miles left) before recharging, and you get your useful range. Also, a hidden factor is that the battery’s top end will decrease over time even if you have been treating it right. These are reasons I am not buying an I-Pace or an E-Tron. I want a range of 300 miles EPA.

Complete battery replacement is what Normally occurs when a manufacturer replaces a battery under an 8 or 10 year warranty. The warranty will state what constitutes a failure..e.g. 50% at 8 years.
 

LYTMCQ

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what about the car in 8 years time when the original battery it came with is no longer made? Are you saying the car needs to be recycled too?
I'm saying economics of replacing the battery means the whole care will get recycled if battery needs replacing.

Most home charged EV's are going to easy on the battery usage so I'd expect the batteries will last way past the 30%/8 year degradation warranty. Early Leaf's has some issues with batteries going under warranty period but later EV's including Leafs seem to have over come that.

But whenever the battery gets down to an usable level for the owner, I'd guess replacement will be too expensive as battery tech will have moved on and getting a battery pack for a 10 year old car will be almost a custom build and too expensive.
 
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