This bothers me...

ChasingCoral

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mark
Joined
Feb 3, 2020
Messages
979
Reaction score
893
Location
Maryland
First Name
Mark
Vehicles
Mach-E FE reserved, Nissan Leaf, Toyota Tacoma
Country flag
If replacing your car battery isn't viable, then in time an EV will have virtually zero resale value once it's warranty expires. Are we expected to send them to scrap then? Surely it is not just viable, but essential?
Replacing will be viable. We have shops in our area that specialize in replacing batteries in Priuses and Leafs. Upgrading may not be so easy. Remember that the Mustang Mach E has loads of computers running all sorts of systems, not the least of these is battery management. How do you think your software will feel about suddenly getting a 150kWh battery? Will it handle it? Can it be recoded? Does this require a jailbreak and hack? It's not just about installing larger capacity batteries. The car has to be able to access it and calculate things like range.
 

EVer

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2020
Messages
68
Reaction score
102
Location
California USA
Vehicles
Model 3P, F150, Volt <- looking to replace with MachE
Country flag
If replacing your car battery isn't viable, then in time an EV will have virtually zero resale value once it's warranty expires. Are we expected to send them to scrap then? Surely it is not just viable, but essential?
I don't know about 'zero resale value.' Perhaps if the car won't move anymore.

Can batteries be changed? Sure. It's easier to do in some cars (Model S) than others (Model 3).

My question is: will it be economically worth it compared with selling your car and buying a new one?

A while back, Tesla offered a 40% capacity upgrade for the roadster, at a cost of $29,000, with zero profit margin. That's a unique case due to low volume; maybe a mass produced pack would cost less, but of course few will offer not-for-profit upgrades.
 

JamieGeek

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2019
Messages
413
Reaction score
364
Location
Southeastern Michigan
Website
spareelectrons.wordpress.com
Vehicles
Bolt EV, Thor Axis, former C-Max Energi, former Focus Electric
Country flag
For the Focus Electric the "bigger" battery was a drop in replacement for the smaller battery (the late model versions got a slight range boost with a "bigger" battery--many speculated that Ford simply couldn't get the smaller battery from its supplier anymore they just started making the bigger one).

Several cars that got warranty battery replacements ended up just getting the bigger battery. Not sure if anyone tried to do this themselves, or if there was any software updates required.
 

silverelan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2019
Messages
706
Reaction score
645
Location
Seattle
Vehicles
2015 Subaru Outback
Country flag
I’ve thought about this a lot too. I won’t drive those kind of ranges so I could lease but so many unknown variables right now on that front.

I don’t know a lot about Teslas so defer to someone else but I even tried to look at their range 3 years ago. Roughly from what I saw it looks like it went from 294 in 2017 to 391 today. So yeah, with battery tech I wouldn’t be surprised if we’re looking at MME with ranges of at least 400 miles in 3 years - even without a quantum leap
Tesla's Model S 100D range went from 335 to 370 to 391 and will likely hit 400mi soon. This was all due to improvements in power consumption in various systems as Tesla learned and new hardware that needed less power to do the same job.

I'm hoping that Ford's design is modular to allow easy upgrades to the MME for swapping out battery sizes and motors. Theoretically it should be relatively easy with plug & play hardware and software updates.

One can imagine using the same form factor for the battery pack but improved density allows for a 125 or 150kWh pack and new motors that use less electricity to produce more power and cruise more efficiently. Do a quick software update and you're golden.

That being said, Tesla doesn't do this for their products with no upgrade path available to owners that wasn't already built-in (software locked battery packs). We've seen 3rd party garages do Tesla performance upgrades but Tesla will lock the cars out of any and all DC fast charging networks if they learn of the changes.
 

timbop

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Jan 3, 2020
Messages
771
Reaction score
717
Location
New Jersey
First Name
Tim
Vehicles
2015 Mustang Convertible, 2016 Dodge Durango
Occupation
Software Engineer
Country flag
As Mark (@ChasingCoral) said there is a distinction between battery replacement with identical specs/formfactor and battery upgrade to a new chemistry/formfactor/specs. At the release Ford explained that the difference between ER and SR is that there is an extra battery module that is stored under the back seats, and that there is not a single battery but multiple submodules bolted in from underneath for easy replacement. Ford intends from the outset for the batteries to be relatively easy to replace with new ones. Due to this design, I am certain that it will be possible to replace aging modules that no longer hold a charge with new ones, just as you can still get drivetrain parts for 10 year old ICEs. I also expect that it will be possible to go from SR to ER by adding the module under the seats, although Ford may charge a fee to have the additional module recognized.

As to this:
We've seen 3rd party garages do Tesla performance upgrades but Tesla will lock the cars out of any and all DC fast charging networks if they learn of the changes.
That is a distinct difference between Tesla and Ford: Musk wants to be in complete control of a closed system, Ford does not. Darren Palmer and Dave Pariczak have already stated that Ford embraces the extension of the cottage industry of third party ICE customizations into the Mach E. Whether that will allow complete upgrades of the batteries to new chemistries and specs is unclear, and certainly the cost could be prohibitive - but I don't think ford will overtly prohibit it.

Only time will tell, but at the very least it is safe to say that a Mach E bought next year will not be "worthless" in a few years, even with > 100k miles.
 
Last edited:

dbsb3233

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Messages
1,476
Reaction score
1,058
Location
Colorado, USA
First Name
Tim
Vehicles
2013 Ford Escape
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
Replacing will be viable. We have shops in our area that specialize in replacing batteries in Priuses and Leafs. Upgrading may not be so easy. Remember that the Mustang Mach E has loads of computers running all sorts of systems, not the least of these is battery management. How do you think your software will feel about suddenly getting a 150kWh battery? Will it handle it? Can it be recoded? Does this require a jailbreak and hack? It's not just about installing larger capacity batteries. The car has to be able to access it and calculate things like range.
That's the type of thing that the OTA updates should do though. One of the big advantages of that feature.

It's the hardware that might present a problem. Wiring, sensors, basic architecture. And probably the biggest issue -- physical size/shape. The entire car is designed around the size and shape of the battery pack. At some unknown point in the future, improved batteries may not even take the same shape. Instead of the standard cylinder size they use now, they'll probably be bar-shape, or liquid, or some other new design that won't fit well in the existing battery pack size/shape.

The question is, how far off is that? 5 years? 7? 10? 15? It's anybody's guess.
 

timbop

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Jan 3, 2020
Messages
771
Reaction score
717
Location
New Jersey
First Name
Tim
Vehicles
2015 Mustang Convertible, 2016 Dodge Durango
Occupation
Software Engineer
Country flag
That's the type of thing that the OTA updates should do though. One of the big advantages of that feature.

It's the hardware that might present a problem. Wiring, sensors, basic architecture. And probably the biggest issue -- physical size/shape. The entire car is designed around the size and shape of the battery pack. At some unknown point in the future, improved batteries may not even take the same shape. Instead of the standard cylinder size they use now, they'll probably be bar-shape, or liquid, or some other new design that won't fit well in the existing battery pack size/shape.

The question is, how far off is that? 5 years? 7? 10? 15? It's anybody's guess.
The batteries themselves are encased in a rectangular module with heat sinks, connecters, etc that bolts onto the bottom. There's no reason that the actual cell shape matters, as long as it it placed inside of the same shaped container with the same interconnects.
 

jhalkias

Well-Known Member
First Name
John
Joined
Mar 3, 2020
Messages
230
Reaction score
214
Location
Ohio
First Name
John
Vehicles
2016 Escape, 2019 Fusion Energi
Occupation
Benefit Fund Administrator
Country flag
Right. Never good when it is interpreted as trying to be funny, not funny. :(
I actually did laugh.

If replacing your car battery isn't viable, then in time an EV will have virtually zero resale value once it's warranty expires. Are we expected to send them to scrap then? Surely it is not just viable, but essential?
My old MacBooks used to have replaceable batteries. The new ones do not. - at least not by the user. We become more and more a disposable society.
 

buzznwood

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 14, 2019
Messages
201
Reaction score
163
Location
california
Vehicles
focus st & rs
Country flag
Like others I do 20k miles years just driving to and from work, throw in road trips and a lease has always been out of the equation. With the mach-e I am going on a bit of blind faith that taking advantage of new battery tech when it comes time will be an option.

The charging and thermal management may need some tweaks, so even if the manufactures loose interest in offering upgrades to battery packs, there is bound to be third party support, however as all the tech advances in batteries are going to be related to energy density and charge time / cycles it should be pretty much plug n play.

Sure will loose out on 800 volts etc, but if battery density increases to the point that for the same amount of space and weight I can have a 300kwh battery in place of the existing 98kwh it doesn't bother me that it could take all weekend to charge from 0% when you have 800+ miles of range.
 

dbsb3233

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Messages
1,476
Reaction score
1,058
Location
Colorado, USA
First Name
Tim
Vehicles
2013 Ford Escape
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
The batteries themselves are encased in a rectangular module with heat sinks, connecters, etc that bolts onto the bottom. There's no reason that the actual cell shape matters, as long as it it placed inside of the same shaped container with the same interconnects.
Not if they don't fit anymore. If the next generation is a completely different size/shape, they may not fit inside the old container. Or they may not fit efficiently, wasting valuable space and thus only allowing fewer of them.

No doubt the current battery pack is designed to the size of these batteries, without any wasted space. If the next generation batteries are of the same basic size/shape, then no problem. But if they're dramatically different, they probably won't fit efficiently, or maybe not at all.

But having said that... I doubt there's much risk of that happening anytime soon, or that there be none of the current-size batteries left anytime soon. New ones might come along in 5 years, but old ones should still be able to get for some time. By the time we can't get them anymore, the vechicle is probably about through with it's typical life anyway.
 
Last edited:

ClaudeMach-E

Well-Known Member
First Name
Claude
Joined
Mar 28, 2020
Messages
130
Reaction score
60
Location
Quebec Canada
First Name
Claude
Vehicles
Mustang Mach 3- Tempo- Malibu(3)-Actual Kia Sportage AWD
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
Reading these about battery longivity that Tesla will come out with and also GM saying that they are close to come out with something similar for their altium battery, I was wondering if Ford is doing R&D in battery tech or do they rely entirely on LG Chem has a supplier to do the R&D and Ford is simply buying of the shelf?:rolleyes:
 

zhackwyatt

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 18, 2019
Messages
304
Reaction score
333
Location
Arizona
Vehicles
'13 C-Max
Country flag
Not if they don't fit anymore. If the next generation is a completely different size/shape, they may not fit inside the old container. Or they may not fit efficiently, wasting valuable space and thus only allowing fewer of them.

No doubt the current battery pack is designed to the size of these batteries, without any wasted space. If the next generation batteries are of the same basic size/shape, then no problem. But if they're dramatically different, they probably won't fit efficiently, or maybe not at all.

But having said that... I doubt there's much risk of that happening anytime soon, or that there be none of the current-size batteries left anytime soon. New ones might come along in 5 years, but old ones should still be able to get for some time. By the time we can't get them anymore, the vechicle is probably about through with it's typical life anyway.
I've heard that's why Tesla uses cylindrical cells. Because you can basically pack them in in multiple configurations. Everyone else seems to use pouches. Not sure why.
 

ChasingCoral

Well-Known Member
First Name
Mark
Joined
Feb 3, 2020
Messages
979
Reaction score
893
Location
Maryland
First Name
Mark
Vehicles
Mach-E FE reserved, Nissan Leaf, Toyota Tacoma
Country flag
My old MacBooks used to have replaceable batteries. The new ones do not. - at least not by the user. We become more and more a disposable society.
Actually, I've replaced one of those internal battery packs in the new MacBooks. It's not something the average consumer can do but not a hard lift for someone with a bit of capability.

The same is to be expected of the batteries in the Mach E. It won't be like swapping out the battery in your ICE, something that takes less knowledge than switching a MacBook battery. However, the average ICE owner can't swap out starters, either. I expect battery swaps in the Mach E to be a bit like any significant component replacement in a car, but with the added challenge that of working with potentially dangerous electrical components.
 

SJ_Okay

Well-Known Member
First Name
Scott
Joined
Feb 25, 2020
Messages
233
Reaction score
151
Location
UK
First Name
Scott
Vehicles
AWD ER Mach-E
Country flag
How do you think your software will feel about suddenly getting a 150kWh battery?
But the beauty of software is that it’s just code... It can be modified to accommodate new hardware. So long as batteries still supply electricity, then it’s more than likely going to need to be hardware that needs upgrading... OTA is supposed to take care of the rest, surely?
 

dbsb3233

Well-Known Member
First Name
Tim
Joined
Dec 30, 2019
Messages
1,476
Reaction score
1,058
Location
Colorado, USA
First Name
Tim
Vehicles
2013 Ford Escape
Occupation
Retired
Country flag
Reading these about battery longivity that Tesla will come out with and also GM saying that they are close to come out with something similar for their altium battery, I was wondering if Ford is doing R&D in battery tech or do they rely entirely on LG Chem has a supplier to do the R&D and Ford is simply buying of the shelf?:rolleyes:
Both. For a vehicle coming out in the near term, any manufacturer is stuck with current batteries. It's taken Ford about 3 years to design and perfect the Mach-e. The battery pack is the underpinning of the whole vehicle, so they design it with known batteries that are already available or expected to be available soon. Tesla does the same with their models, GM with the Bolt, etc.

The new battery talk about Tesla and GM is still "future". Could take years for them to become reality. And no doubt Ford is doing the same planning for the future as well.
 
Top