Electric Highways

AKgrampy

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big problem facing small utilities and suburban/rural areas for charging infrastructure is both the lack of 3-phase power, backlog and cost of obtaining/installing dedicated 500kva transformers, and load management.... having 150kw-600kw come on and off the line is difficult to manage for rural lines that don't have a whole lot of capacity.

Their rate structures have been developed to cover the costs by billing 'demand charges' based on peak loads, PLUS 'energy charges' for what is actually consumed. If a one-handle charge station is installed with max charge rate of 150kw, the demand charge of $25/kw (average from what I've seen) means the bill for the charge station is $3750 per month before you even sell one charge. Energy charges at commercial rates are probaably around $.06 off peak, but jump up closer to $0.20/kwhr during peak in most areas I've looked at, plus $50/mo service charge.

in a rural area, lets say you sell an average of one 50kwhr charge per day and $.40/kwhr. your gross revenue would be around $600/mo.... if you can adjust rate on the fly to charge more during peak. Then you have to take some percentage out for O&M, and billing admininstration/networking

you cost to operate this scenerio under typical commercial rate classes with demand charges would be $3750 + $90 + $50 = $3890

..... so, clearly a losing proposition unless you can lower/eliminate/change the demand charge which many small utilities simply can't figure out how to absorb unless they pass the infrastructure costs on to the owner/operator of the charge stations... which makes the initial cost high, and again makes the project unprofitable.

THESE are the challanges with 'rural' DCFC
Perhaps DCFC is not really needed in rural areas with no 3 phase power. Single phase lines can be long but normally not that long of a distance from a three phase source. We have some long distances here in Alaska but in general there is three phase power less than 50 miles from the end of a single phase line. DCFC will just need to be sited in these areas. Also a rural area could limit their DCFC to a smaller 50 kW version versus the higher kW units proposed for highway systems and urban areas. As many have stated one-size does not fit all. Utilities already use remote control for demand side management and there may be a way to work with manufactures to allow rural utilities to reduce power of a DCFC during peak loads. In that way the demand charge may be able to be reduced for that specific installation. There are benefits to live in a rural setting and there are also some challenges.
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Perhaps DCFC is not really needed in rural areas with no 3 phase power. Single phase lines can be long but normally not that long of a distance from a three phase source. We have some long distances here in Alaska but in general there is three phase power less than 50 miles from the end of a single phase line. DCFC will just need to be sited in these areas. Also a rural area could limit their DCFC to a smaller 50 kW version versus the higher kW units proposed for highway systems and urban areas. As many have stated one-size does not fit all. Utilities already use remote control for demand side management and there may be a way to work with manufactures to allow rural utilities to reduce power of a DCFC during peak loads. In that way the demand charge may be able to be reduced for that specific installation. There are benefits to live in a rural setting and there are also some challenges.

yes, and what MAY become the norm is running a 150kw DCFC with 3x single-phase 'services'. This may skirt antiquated utility rate classes where demand charges kick in over 50kw.

or... put a big fat battery in the middle with a single-phase 50kw charger, which could 'buffer up' and send bursts of 150kw if available.... and drop to 50kw when buffer is exhausted.
 

AKgrampy

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yes, and what MAY become the norm is running a 150kw DCFC with 3x single-phase 'services'. This may skirt antiquated utility rate classes where demand charges kick in over 50kw.

or... put a big fat battery in the middle with a single-phase 50kw charger, which could 'buffer up' and send bursts of 150kw if available.... and drop to 50kw when buffer is exhausted.
I would not call demand charge based rates antiquated and it would not surprise me if utilities moved that way for residential in the future. As long as the load has a good load factor then demand charges do not impact the overall rate. Only loads with poor load factors appear to be ā€œpenalizedā€.
 

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The difference between air conditioning and home charging: everyone's AC is on at the same time because everyone is hot at the same time. Peak generating capacity is designed to handle that max load, but of course cannot meet every peak due to population growth and hotter peak temps. Not everyone has to charge at the same time, so it is not just theoretical but absolutely possible for EV's to charge at either different times or lower current draws. It doesn't have to be regulated: California is already beginning to offer cheaper offpeak rates to encourage exactly this behavior. Smart EVSE's are also part of that equation, although assurances and mechanisms have to be in place so commuters can be guaranteed to get a minimum power draw overnight. It is perfectly do-able, but ultimately widespread personal solar with storage meets the need perfectly. Unfortunately that won't happen because there is too much money at stake.

And yes, all jurisdictions need to get off of fossil fuel power plants. It will not be a smooth transition, but keeping the status quo is not sustainable long term and is a recipe for a far bumpier ride.
Unless youā€™re retired, Iā€™d say most people charge their EVs overnight.
Overnight EV charging will become the new PEAK usage. Iā€™m willing to bet that in the near future your only cheap rates will be from 10am-2pm. Unless your employer has chargers available, everyone will be paying much more to charge. Dont forget that thereā€™s a very strong push to eliminate NEM, so your solar panels wonā€™t save you forever.
 

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Texas asked EV owners to not charge during the day, too, so it is hardly a California problem. And to be fair, both California and Texas asked everybody to conserve electricity, not just EV owners. Every time there is a heat wave, these sorts of appeals to conserve electricity happen. Texas had to do it twice this year. EV charging isn't the problem. It is the wide pervasive use of Air Conditioning. And Californians and Texans weren't asked to stop plugging in their cars. They were just asked to not charge at peak times. The majority of owners charge at home overnight, well outside the peak demand period.
Thatā€™s not the point I was making.

The point was simply that itā€™s already a problem in ā€œsome places.ā€

You just helped me drive that point home.

We need better infrastructure and infrastructure it seems the demand is already outpacing our ability to upgrade it and that will continue to get worse.

EV charging may not be the main problem, but it definitely wonā€™t help!
 


Blue highway

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Unless youā€™re retired, Iā€™d say most people charge their EVs overnight.
Overnight EV charging will become the new PEAK usage. Iā€™m willing to bet that in the near future your only cheap rates will be from 10am-2pm. Unless your employer has chargers available, everyone will be paying much more to charge. Dont forget that thereā€™s a very strong push to eliminate NEM, so your solar panels wonā€™t save you forever.
in SoCal, and other sunny places off peak may be 10a-2p at some point... In the midwest and northeast (~75% of US population lives in the Eastern and Central time zones) overnight will be off peak for at least the next decade.
 

AKgrampy

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Thatā€™s not the point I was making.

The point was simply that itā€™s already a problem in ā€œsome places.ā€

You just helped me drive that point home.

We need better infrastructure and infrastructure it seems the demand is already outpacing our ability to upgrade it and that will continue to get worse.

EV charging may not be the main problem, but it definitely wonā€™t help!
I do not believe infrastructure will be an issue initially other than a need for more chargers. My thought is there will be a shift in peak demand or at least quite a change to the overnight load dip that allows utilities to offer the lower rate. As significantly more people move to EVā€™S there will be the need for more generation, utility provided or home solar with battery storage, to meet the overnight charging requirements. Eventually there may need to be increased transmission and distribution facilities. Of course conservation can help delay infrastructure upgrades; however, as the population continues to grow the electric grid will fall short without upgrades. EVā€™S are not the only pressure on the grid. Some areas are now not allowing any new natural gas stoves, dryers, etc to be installed which will also cause an increase in electrical load. Personally I believe the US needs to get back on the nuclear energy track.
 

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big problem facing small utilities and suburban/rural areas for charging infrastructure is both the lack of 3-phase power, backlog and cost of obtaining/installing dedicated 500kva transformers, and load management.... having 150kw-600kw come on and off the line is difficult to manage for rural lines that don't have a whole lot of capacity.

Their rate structures have been developed to cover the costs by billing 'demand charges' based on peak loads, PLUS 'energy charges' for what is actually consumed. If a one-handle charge station is installed with max charge rate of 150kw, the demand charge of $25/kw (average from what I've seen) means the bill for the charge station is $3750 per month before you even sell one charge. Energy charges at commercial rates are probaably around $.06 off peak, but jump up closer to $0.20/kwhr during peak in most areas I've looked at, plus $50/mo service charge.

in a rural area, lets say you sell an average of one 50kwhr charge per day and $.40/kwhr. your gross revenue would be around $600/mo.... if you can adjust rate on the fly to charge more during peak. Then you have to take some percentage out for O&M, and billing admininstration/networking

you cost to operate this scenerio under typical commercial rate classes with demand charges would be $3750 + $90 + $50 = $3890

..... so, clearly a losing proposition unless you can increase the charges per day to more than 8 x 50kwhr or lower/eliminate/change the demand charge which many small utilities simply can't figure out how to absorb unless they pass the infrastructure costs on to the owner/operator of the charge stations... which makes the initial cost high, and again makes the project unprofitable.

THESE are the challanges with 'rural' DCFC
Unless youā€™re retired, Iā€™d say most people charge their EVs overnight.
Overnight EV charging will become the new PEAK usage. Iā€™m willing to bet that in the near future your only cheap rates will be from 10am-2pm. Unless your employer has chargers available, everyone will be paying much more to charge. Dont forget that thereā€™s a very strong push to eliminate NEM, so your solar panels wonā€™t save you forever.
Here's the thing: if you generate the power where you use it, you don't need to send it long distances and you don't need to ration it. That's why consumer solar with storage is such a great solution. Since the vast majority of charging can be done at home there doesn't need to be DCFC everywhere - just along travel routes and that only has to service a fraction of the cars at a given time.

We have the technology and the ability to solve the problem. What is missing is the strategy and the collective will to overcome those whose fortunes are in jeopardy.
 

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Energy storage with "trickle charging" & smart usage is the "simple" solution to all of this... and not just batteries and charging overnight. We need better energy storage at all levels - homes, neighborhoods, chargers, grid level.
Generation to cover demand over a 24 hour period isn't really the problem. The problem is making sure there is enough available to balance the grid ANYTIME of day, which is pretty hard to do, even though there are models that predict daily usage. If we had adequate storage at all levels, we could slowly increase base-load usage to not only meet an average usage per day, but also properly "fill up" storage. That storage is then used to shave off peak/above base-load. This can be done with a combination of not just renewables, but whatever we need to get us through until we have enough renewables to meet 100% of average demand. Combining storage at the home, neighborhood, charger, & city region, along with "smart demand" helps flatten that usage curve throughout a 24hr period.
The "easy" way to enable smart demand is to incentivize users, but not limit them. Having some small home storage to peak-shave, even a little bit, helps. This can be incentivized to users by grid operators by subsidizing that storage, providing a modest discount, and providing limited backup capabilities. They can then require that home storage to contribute back to the grid when needed. If we were able to augment that with EV batteries & V2H/V2G, it would be even easier. Having "smart usage", like coordinated, adjustable power EV charging, smart water-heaters(which are their own sort of energy storage), and smart thermostats that coordinate you and your neighbor both being able to run your AC for 30min/hr, but not the same 30mins, will help smooth demand. Add to that home-level storage to peak-shave, so your demand usages remains flat even if you might pull an extra 2kW above your "normal" demand. That is easy enough to incentive most users... provide a small discount like $.02/kWh. Having storage at the neighborhood level would provide a smoothing out of sub-station demand and allow user generations(solar excess) be stored at the local level, reducing transmission requirements both to and from that substation. Trickle charge that sub-station storage from grid generation when there is excess energy being generated.
Better energy storage options that don't depend on rare-ish metals like lithium, such as pressurized CO2 or hot-sand batteries, that are cheap, have easily resourced materials and can be scaled up are the key.
The next generation is going to take all this for granted and will genuinely wonder why we didn't implement this stuff when we first saw climate change effects and we'll embarrassedly shrug and say we didn't know.
 

AKgrampy

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Here's the thing: if you generate the power where you use it, you don't need to send it long distances and you don't need to ration it. That's why consumer solar with storage is such a great solution. Since the vast majority of charging can be done at home there doesn't need to be DCFC everywhere - just along travel routes and that only has to service a fraction of the cars at a given time.

We have the technology and the ability to solve the problem. What is missing is the strategy and the collective will to overcome those whose fortunes are in jeopardy.
I agree home solar is part of the solution; however, if home charging was the answer there would not be as much need for DCFC. Also home solar does not help out apartment dwellers, city residents, people surrounded with woods (like myself), winter locals (me again) where solar does not cut it year round, fleet vehicles, and so on. Solar will be a big part of the solution moving forward but much more will be needed to move totally away from fossil fuels.
 

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I agree home solar is part of the solution; however, if home charging was the answer there would not be as much need for DCFC. Also home solar does not help out apartment dwellers, city residents, people surrounded with woods (like myself), winter locals (me again) where solar does not cut it year round, fleet vehicles, and so on. Solar will be a big part of the solution moving forward but much more will be needed to move totally away from fossil fuels.
In those cases I agree with you, but for a significant chunk of the problem solar plus storage is the "low hanging fruit" that exists TODAY. For northern CONUS locations wind turbines are a more reliable choice that also exists today - and the necessary winds happen to be abundant in those rural midwest states. Apartment dwellers in cities are a harder nut to crack, but that just means we have to continue working on ideas while we implement the easy stuff that is available now.

It took only 65 years to go from lewis and clark paddling across the continent to the last spike of the transcontinental railroad being driven in. In 1947 Pan Am's regular "around the world" passenger service began 44 years after the first flight at kitty hawk. Only 22 years after that Apollo 11 landed on the moon - and that effort didn't start in earnest until 1961.

If we have the will we can absolutely find ways to get off of fossil fuels. As I said the real barrier is that the rich and powerful have too much to lose, and too many resources to keep the status quo.
 

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Unless youā€™re retired, Iā€™d say most people charge their EVs overnight.
Overnight EV charging will become the new PEAK usage. Iā€™m willing to bet that in the near future your only cheap rates will be from 10am-2pm. Unless your employer has chargers available, everyone will be paying much more to charge. Dont forget that thereā€™s a very strong push to eliminate NEM, so your solar panels wonā€™t save you forever.
Overnight will never be peak electricity usage, because the industrial sector uses about 35% of the power, and much of that is shutdown overnight. Then take out businesses and schools, ...



There are many examples in history of major change that no one ever believed would be change. Cars vs horses. Flight. Electricity in homes. EVs will be forced on society by manufacturers and government. Utilities and infrastructure will upgrade because they have to. Some areas of the country will lag behind, and will resist change. That's just the way it is.

Economies come with mass adoption. In 20 years we'll see solar everywhere, and battery storage at home will be the norm.
 

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Here's the thing: if you generate the power where you use it, you don't need to send it long distances and you don't need to ration it. That's why consumer solar with storage is such a great solution. Since the vast majority of charging can be done at home there doesn't need to be DCFC everywhere - just along travel routes and that only has to service a fraction of the cars at a given time.
Battery storage currently makes no sense for consumers. It will cost you about $1k for every 1kWh of storage. It would cost me $24k for a battery storage solution that could cover charging for my daily commute only šŸ˜‚.

Overnight will never be peak electricity usage, because the industrial sector uses about 35% of the power, and much of that is shutdown overnight. Then take out businesses and schools,
Yes youā€™re right, but a push to renewable power will completely change the current dynamics of your power infrastructure. California allows you to see trends of electrical demand and production. The peak usage, with about a 40% demand increase, is actually when people get up in the morning and get home from work. The lowest demand is actually noon and like 2am. Current renewable supply only really works between 8am-4Pm, which is off peak. The rest of the day is powered by half local gas plants and half imported from out of state gas plants. They need to find an effective way to store excess daytime power to use at night when your new peak charging time will be and during typical peak times. Iā€™m not so sure miles and miles of battery farms is the solution.
Iā€™m no opposed to change at all. Itā€™s just that no one seems to be doing it in a way that makes sense. Itā€™s all about letā€™s jump straight to the finish line and get all the brownie points. It doesnā€™t matter that it wonā€™t work, weā€™ll just increase the cost of any alternatives so that our poor planing makes sense.
 
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Thatā€™s not the point I was making.

The point was simply that itā€™s already a problem in ā€œsome places.ā€

You just helped me drive that point home.

We need better infrastructure and infrastructure it seems the demand is already outpacing our ability to upgrade it and that will continue to get worse.

EV charging may not be the main problem, but it definitely wonā€™t help!
Except your point that because the CA systems operator asked EV owners for a minor favor somehow describes a "problem" was factually not a problem, or an indictment on the size/strength of the grid here as it relates to supporting EV growth. Two reasons: 1) zero EV drivers were stopped from charging their vehicles during those high demand hours, and 2) literally nobody here charges during those hours anyway (unless an emergency), because electric rates are double during the 4-9 pm high demand hours in the summer.

BTW, Californians responded to that request in spades (by reducing home AC). No outages occurred. And one might say it's a problem we don't charge from 4-9 pm during summer months. The counter to that is that I've never gotten out of bed in the middle of the night to go fill up my car with gas so I could start the next day with a full tank. And yet that is our beautiful reality with EV. Charging overnight with zero stress on the grid because overall demand is so low during those hours. ...And nobody moved away because they were asked to pitch in and help for a few hours.
 

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Unless youā€™re retired, Iā€™d say most people charge their EVs overnight.
Overnight EV charging will become the new PEAK usage. Iā€™m willing to bet that in the near future your only cheap rates will be from 10am-2pm. Unless your employer has chargers available, everyone will be paying much more to charge. Dont forget that thereā€™s a very strong push to eliminate NEM, so your solar panels wonā€™t save you forever.
I don't think it will change that much. Overnight L2 is actually better for the grid (load-leveling)... up to a point. But while we will have millions of people with EVs charging at night, it's not usually every night. Average daily miles is like 40. Most only need an average of 10-15 kWh/day, with staggered charging days. That's not minor, but it's not anywhere close to a full battery-worth. We might see more charging time management through the night (via rates or smart control) to even it out more through the night.

It's more evidence that we need to heavily encourage off-peak L2 where people live/sleep and discourage DCFC any more than necessary (mostly road trips). This "free unlimited DCFC" that VW and some others are giving out is a horrible, counterproductive idea. We all see ID.4's flooding EA stations instead of charging at home, just because it's "free".
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